SPEAKER_00 0:00

You're listening to the Support Ed Learning Podcast, where we challenge the status quo of education and reimagine what learning should be. I'm Dr. Joe Sebastian, and in every episode we dive into critical thinking, Bloom's Taxonomy, educational innovation, and how AI is shaping the future of learning. Whether you're a teacher, parent, policymaker, or lifelong learner, you're in the right place to rethink, reshape, and revive education. Welcome back to the Supported Learning Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Joe Sebastian. I am joined by a very special guest today. John Bergman. Welcome to the podcast. How are you? I'm doing great. So you're on Man on the Mission, are protecting the human mind, which is something that I'm very, very interested in learning more about and also passionate about because we need a lot of great voices in education, especially as educational technology and AI transforms every aspect of society. But you're a person that's an advocate, a pioneer, um, a visionary, but you're also still boots on the ground because you're still in the classroom and you're trying to create the second revolution in education and the mastery flip. And I'm really, really excited that you're able to join us tonight. So again, thank you. I want to just dive right in and just kind of give us a little background on how you, you know, you've written books, you've published you're you're renowned around not only just America, the world for the flip classroom, but tell me like where did it all begin for you? Yeah, Dr. Joe, I've got a weird career.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

So uh I taught for 24 years in Colorado, and about the year 19, I moved to the mountains of Colorado, and that's where I met Aaron Sands. And uh we had a problem in our in our classes is that we had kids small world school from the mountains of Colorado. We'd have kids who were uh missing class because they had to go to a basketball game or whatever. A lot of kids would be gone at noon, and so what we found ourselves is spending huge amounts of time, two or three kids after school. We both taught chemistry, and they were struggling. And so one day, Aaron discovered some software that could like record your lectures. So we started recording our lectures in the morning, and then uh we had a crazy idea. Actually, the head of the curriculum director of our spoilers, and she said, She said, My daughter's attending a local university, and her professor started recording his lectures and she loves it. And then she said, This is the conversation with the curriculum director. She said, She, my daughter loves this because she doesn't have to go to class anymore. And later that day, Erin and I said, Wait a second, was that a weird conversation? And then that was the moment where we said, Well, wait a second, what if we pre-recorded our lessons? And so that's how the flip classroom was born. And uh, from our perspective, there's other people who did some work before us, but we were the ones who had a chance to popularize it, we wrote a book about it. Uh, subsequently, I moved my family to Chicago where it became not the first literature and method when the first book came out. And I only was basically director of tech for two years because then the book exploded and the invitations came from all over the world. So I spent then eight or nine years, seven or eight, I think where seven or eight years traveling all over the world. I went over you can imagine, from Dubai to New Zealand to Iceland to um Asia, uh, everywhere you can imagine, uh, how to go with flip classroom. And then in 2019, I was at a conference in Florida, the FETC conference, and I was having dinner with some friends, uh, Fritz Aftig teachers and professors. And I thought, man, I've been now traveling around the world doing the guru thing. By the way, that one book turned into 12 books, and I felt that'll pull back to the classroom. So this is like January of 2019. I thought of all the schools that I've ever visited, what school, because I had a chance to book probably hundreds of schools, what school did I want to teach at? And long story short, I'm now teaching at the that school in Houston, Texas. So I moved from Chicago to Houston, and now I'm back. This is my seventh year back teaching. And lately I really been thinking a lot about uh AI in the classroom and the minds of my students and saving the human brain and a lot of things like that.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

So yeah, that's my urban career. So, the summary, you taught, you got this new idea going, you wrote a book about it, you became world renowned in the educational community, left the classroom, did a global tour, and then go, I want to go back to the classroom. You got to, but you got to almost pick your school.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Yeah, yeah. That's pretty question. I had a lot of privileges. I'm I walked in while I was in the like the final interview uh with the head of school. I said, I know I'm a weird hire because because I'd also I'd done consulting at this school, and so it was weird that they're reading their consultant to be just a regular teacher. And so I was a weird hire, and yeah, I also know that a lot of teachers don't get a chance to say, All the schools I visited, what school did I think was the best? Yeah, I feel very privileged to be at such an amazing school show.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Right. Well, we've talked to some guests about flipping classrooms and the flip classroom, but for parents out there listening and just like, so you're giving my kids videos to watch, what are you doing in class? Kind of break it down for them because obviously you're a 40-year vet in the in education. How is the flip classroom allowing for deeper learning to happen in the actual school day?

SPEAKER_01 5:27

So, what used to happen, you know, those first 19 years when I was just a stand deliver teacher, standing up, build a lecture thing, like right most people were are used to. Uh I presented, if you will, I introduced the new content. So if we think of Bloom's taxonomy, you know, you know, if you're not familiar with Bloom's taxonomy, it's got levels of cognition, search with knowledge, it's usually pictures of pyramid, knowledge, understanding, application, analysis, evaluation, and creation. And most classes, yeah, I were arguing still today, they spend most of their time on information transfer, the body levels of cognition. And what we realized we could do is we could flip last X beyond test and less class time on the information transfer or more class time on deeper learning. A hardcut flip learning has always been the idea that we're gonna do the hard stuff in the class where they can get the help that they need from the expert, and they can be that introduction that the information transfer piece could happen outside of class or in what we like to call the independent space. And that's why it's been working. I mean, we saw our test scores raised one standard deviation when we implemented the model. Uh, there's research study after research studies, thousands of research studies now on flip learning that shows that works. Um, two variant effects, uh, effect sizes. John Hattie's talked about it. A lot of people know lots of things about uh the efficacy of flip learning and and it works when done well.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Yeah, I can test to testify to that because I did the flipped classroom or version of it, not necessarily truly the video lessons, but I taught IB history of the Americas in Virginia, which is a tested subject in U.S. history. So my kids who came from a majority, it was a majority minority district or school, all kinds of different backgrounds, had very little solid understanding of US history and were expected to take a Virginia state test on it. But also we had to get them ready for the IB exam, which is very deep on certain topics. So we had a blitz through content and curriculum, but we also spent time so we had a front load. We said, listen, we don't have time to have you, you have to learn a lot of this on your own. You have to get the background so we can spend time doing the how and why in class. And I think what's important is because we say this a lot, and uh, I love how you put it in terms of blooms because I I a hundred percent agree with you. It doesn't happen as much as you think in school. Now, most of the teaching that and it's still at the AP level, too, is we're still teaching the basic level, the knowledge, the understanding, because we're covering the content, and the teachers are letting the kids figure out the skills. I've literally heard it, well, they're smart, they'll figure it out. And that doesn't just happen. Kids don't just become amazing critical thinkers without practice. So, you know, in the lens of being able to push your kids, how have you seen that transform in just the day-to-day by them already doing some of the front-loaded work before coming to your class?

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Well, they prefer it really, because it it's actually it values their time. It's really a more efficient model, honestly, because students are gonna watch the cheesy video in my mind, if you will, in my old school days, those first 19 years, I stood and did the stand and delitter all. And you know, I'd spend 25 minutes on a lecture, 30 minutes on a lecture, something like that, and then I'd give them a little bit of time to work. But in a flip, when done well, I your listeners may not believe me, but I promise thousands and thousands of teachers who attest to what I'm about to say is that if you take your lecture and you convert it to a video, I call it the rule of three. You can do it in a third the time. Not right away when you first make your first video, but if you get your video, I can get that content out in a third the time. So it's very efficient in terms of helping students to get introduced to the content. Now, it's not, I'm not expecting my kids to come in to my class and have mastered the content. That's a different thing. I expect them to come to my class having been introduced to the content, and I'm gonna help them move further. Now, some students will have come and mastered it, and now boom, they can move on. And and and those students they they finish early. And honestly, what they do is they work on their their AP chemistry class. I teach physics now and geology. I used to take chemistry, or they work on their their English essay or whatever they do. And so they they prefer that I'm actually giving them actually time to work on stuff.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

So what I guess have you gotten push when you started this or when you were new to a school, have you gotten pushback from parents at all about this in terms of like what it you're giving my kid all this homework? And I don't know if you only teach the high-level API B classes or if you teach some general ed, because that was always the pushback I hear. Well, you know, we have truancy issues, we have kids, kids that aren't gonna do the they're just not gonna do the homework, so they're gonna come in not having done it. How do you how do you hedge for that?

SPEAKER_01 10:26

A lot of it's about communication, Joe. I I gotta communicate to my parents, this is how I'm doing it, this is why I'm doing it, and then they understand it and then they figure it out. Now, there are some times when I've had parents who came to me, so I I fought uh when I was teaching in college, I don't know if the idea, I was teaching just average freshman and then drew chemistry and A-B chemistry, three threats. And I would did it with my freshman um earth science class, and it worked just fine. I mean, were there some parents who complained? Yeah, actually, I got a lot of complaints, honestly, from like chemistry. And here's what I here was the common complaint that I got was my kid's not getting this, so it's the flip classroom's fault. Okay, he can't learn that way, but but Joe, I had taught chemistry by this time for you know 24 years, or whatever the number was many, many years. And it's like, okay, I've taught it this long, and I know that chemistry's always been a hard subject. Okay, and what I noticed is that the number of kids struggling was less than ever before, but not by the kids who are struggling, but the parent doesn't have that 20-year perspective, so they think they have to blame something, you know. They can't learn this way. Well, they're struggling with chemistry because chemistry is hard, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:46

That's all it's so hard, I can make it easier, but I can't I can't make it easy, right? So, yeah, yeah. I mean, that um that makes sense. The what was I gonna ask you? I had a good question too. When when we look at the model, because you said about Bloom, so that makes so much sense in terms of the the research is saying that because if you're familiar with MTSS models, RTI models, all the research now is saying rather than have a kid relearn something that was taught badly to him, it's actually they're they retain more if you front load the content. If they're you know they're gonna struggle on vocab and they have a reading deficiency or a math, if we just take them out of the classroom and preview the content, they retain so much better when the actual instruction happens. So it makes sense in a lot of ways that the flipped classroom is just that kind of on steroids in terms of looking at it.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

The efficacy of it, I used to always say this the reason the flip blaster works is to have more time to work on higher level looms and help them learn their stocks. So also, I would say, because it also makes the burning more active. I was able to do, I still have, able to do more experiments. Some of my colleagues who haven't completely embraced the flip model were like, oh, Bergman's doing another lap. Bergman's doing another lap. So as a science teacher, I can do so many more laps uh than ever before. But then John Hattie came out with an interesting statement. He had analyzed the research, and he's a way better researcher than I am. I'm not a researcher, a practitioner. And he said that he felt like the reason flip classroom works is because it gives students another touch point. So that's kind of to your point. He's saying they they get exposed to it here, then they get exposed to it again in the class. So it's just this repeated cycles. There was a study done, I don't know, I don't know when many uh years ago, there was interesting about that it helps the student gets introduced to a concept and then they go through a sleep cycle with something about how the brain works and all this kind of stuff. And so I used to say, well, they're due by the class period, but in this last year, for the first time, I said, All right, I'm gonna follow the research. I make my students they have to watch their videos by midnight the night before. So there's a sleep cycle before they come in. And I've seen increased scores, et cetera, et cetera, this year than than previous. So I'm just following the research, and I should have, even though I've known this for a couple of years, I didn't actually require it until this year. Now it works.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

So flip classroom in the last couple years, AI has now come out, and you talk about it as I think a crossroads, right? You call a bifurcation, you you call it a great bifurcation because we're either, I mean, I guess I'll let you explain it because I think we're at a crossroads as educators, although I don't think the crossroads is as evident to most people in education that are unfamiliar with how it's gonna happen. So, what is the great bifurcation that's gonna happen with this AI-driven world that we're entering?

SPEAKER_01 14:46

So a couple here backstory. Uh, two years ago, my principal came to me and said, John, uh, this AI thing wave is coming. I need you to help me figure it out. So I spent the summer, I downloaded all the LLMs, I played with them, I read all the books, and I jumped full feed into AI thinking this will be just the panacea to solve a lot of our problems, and it was an abject failure. What I discovered is that kids were using AI as a crutch instead as a thinking partner and as an amplifier. And what I fear is going to happen in our world right now is I'm calling a great bifurcation, where those students who use AI in a way that helps them and amplifies their work will bribe them, will be the leader of the world. And those who use it as a crutch, or a Ted Chang in the New Yorker said maybe a year and a half ago, he said using AI to do an assignment is like taking a forklift to the weight room. You get the same benefit. And that's what I've seen too often students do is they're using AI as a forklift in the weight room. And what's happening, and there's study after study coming out now that are basically saying that critical thinking is diminishing and that that human brain growth, right? I teach adolescents, and there's there's something happening physiologically in their brain that's happening because hormones, adolescence, the whole ballgame. And it's so important that we build their brain muscles, if you will, it's not a muscle, but synaptic connections, all this stuff needs to be built. And if they take the easy road out, it's going to hurt them long term. And I want to preserve human punishment.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

This episode is brought to you by Supported Tutoring, where we don't just help students get better grades, we help them become critical thinkers. Whether it's mastering AP exams, maximizing college applications, or building lifelong learning habits, our expert tutors focus on critical thinking, confidence, and real growth. Head to supportedtutoring.com to find the support your student deserves. What does that student look like? What do both those students look like? For parents who are like, okay, but like, what does that what does that look like? So you have ones that are using it as a crutch that are making it do its thinking, and ones that are using it as a thought partner. So give me the two the students, and what what does that look like and sound like for each of those?

SPEAKER_01 17:11

Those who are using it as a crutch are only hurting themselves because they're they're given an assignment and then write the essay or whatever, do the physics lab, and they just ask AI to whip for them, they turn it in, and they haven't learned anything. And they're stupefying themselves. I've written articles about this. This to your backdrop, right? We've got to so prevent that. So I think it's super important to design a school or design a classroom in a way that doesn't allow them to do that. Now, on the other hand, I have seen students. So uh my my podcast, I had a three podcast episode series come out in the last few weeks on uh this project I did with my physics students, and I wanted them to use AI as a thought partner, and uh they had to build physically build a working trebuchet. Now, trebuchet is like a uh ancient siege engine, I think catapult on steroids. They then had to build it. We then shot them across the school field, had to shoot tennis ball, 20 arts. Some were great, some were not. Then they had to then write a report, and I expected them to use AI to write the report, but part of what was hard to do is I forced them that they had to actually like take video of their thing and analyze their actual motion of their pin spot. Something she can't AI very well, but they use AI a lot to as a coach, see, to help them to build it in a way that's gonna launch the ball as far as possible. In the process, they're learning some of the physics behind it. Now, as a note, this was a summative assignment, so they had been learning the physics all year, and this was a culminating thing to put all the pieces together. But then the key thing, and this, I mean, we're getting ahead of myself, but in my model now that I've re- I've mainly framework, is they then had to have an interview with me individually, well, they had to explain the physics, and so they used AI there as a coach. I actually created, we have an AI platform, Flint K12, that we use in our school. And I created the I call it the meme Mr. Birdman AI guy, where it would ask them hard questions as if they were sitting in the mastery viva. That's what I call it, in the mastery viva in that little uh 10-minute uh oral defense that they did with me, and then they could then respond back and forth with that and practice there so that when they came live face to face with me, they were they they they could knock that interview out of the park. And that was a huge portion of the grade, the oral defense, not just the not just the uh the paper. I I diminished the value of the paper because I expected them to cheat.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

So, where do you think we're going in education with it? I mean, obviously you gave us a two scenario world for students, but where are we going as educators with it? And how can it be beneficial and how can it be the destruction of education in Western society? I guess what are our two paths here?

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Both are gonna happen simultaneously, Joe. I think you're gonna see those students and those teachers who figure this out and schools. I am hopeful that some schools want to do this well, and I think they're going to be the ones that lead the world. And those who don't, it's gonna be, I fear for it. I mean, AI is already replacing a lot of jobs, and you've got to learn how to use AI in a way that makes sense um and is useful, but you've got to build that levels of cognition, that critical thinking skills. I mean, I and again, I I this is a message that I'm I'm communicating to my students, to my parents all the time, saying this is something we've got to watch and be careful for because you know, as educators, we've got to create a system that's gonna help our kids thrive. And if we are honestly, we're using the old system. Let's say you're the English teacher and it's like, hey, I want you to write this essay. You can never do that anymore. I mean, at the you're sending it home because it's just you're just gonna get AI slot back. So you can't that game that ship sailed, you can't do that anymore. I I've talked to teachers, it's like I'm I I talked to an English teacher a while back and she's like promoting it's like, what am I doing? There I I sign these essays, and all I get back is this slop, and I'm reading AI work. What a waste of time, and you know, and she needs to rethink how she teaches, right? Yeah. We've gotta think of a way we've got to resign a system so that we preserve human cognition. Still allow AI to coach them in appropriate ways at the right time. But it it we've gotta really So are you still traveling in classes or you're just in the school? So I I teach full time. Uh Nutrition high school. Uh, but I still have opportunities to travel. I spoke at a conference in uh San Francisco uh last month, I guess it was. Yeah. I'm born to Brazil, where to the end of school year. And so I still have invitations. I speak pretty regularly on Zoom all over the world. So there's still I still have sort of this side gig. So I I mentor some schools, and so often that's just done uh over like a Zoom call. Right. Uh so I I have uh a robust side gig.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

I think what are in your experience and and some what you see, what are schools getting right uh about this revolution and this change right now? And what are schools still maybe you're not getting wrong or a little too slow to change for what is needed?

SPEAKER_01 22:42

I guess I'm hopeful that most of them at least are acknowledging the issue. But I see like there's two choices. Some are going, you know, banning AI, ban trying to just you know stop anything AI. I think that's completely a bad idea. But I think then but the other side is is I think there's a more balanced approach where we can say how can we use AI to enhance, because the reality is the moment they walk out your door, they've got access to AI, right? A connected device, and so we have to live in that reality. And so we need to Yeah, I think that schools that are thinking that through, a lot of schools around us have got you know really thoughtful policies that that they are building into their school and they're starting to train faculty. And honestly, I used to do you know lots of consulting around flip learning, and I still do some degree, but now it's been a lot more schools are interested in my thoughts about AI and how to help us implement AI. And frankly, we've said this, but flibbed learning is, if you will, the ideal uh methodology in an AI world. Because if I can't send so here's the state that I I will say I say to teachers all the time you can't send home the cognitively complex stuff anymore. When Erin and I started the flip classroom, we talked at the beginning, we were sending home the hard stuff and they couldn't do it. And they gave up or they cheated by calling their friend on their phone. Right. Right. But now you send home the hard stuff and it comes that perfectly well done because they had AI do it. But now I have actually a very reasonable homework assignment. I want you to watch one seven-minute video and take notes. They're gonna be introduced to the content. Now, if they decide to have AI teach them how to do this physics problem or to understand this aspect of a volcano, fine. They they don't necessarily need to watch my video, they could find the AI avatar who explains it to them. I don't care, but they come in prepared to now do the more complex things. I've actually had to like put a moratorium. I have some students who keep coming to class with their paper assignments done, and I'm saying, don't do this. I want you to do this in class because I know what you're doing. Right. They looked it up on the internet, or they just it's like a piece of paper. I've done this before, I know that I can do this. You take a picture of your of the paper with your phone, put it in your chat GPT and all the and they're just fucking the answers from Chat GPT. I'm saying, young lady, that's not gonna work. So now their laptops are in their graph. We have laptops, kids all the laptop, they're in their backpacks. And I said, Yeah, figure this out. Like they have textbook, and like in my geology class, there's actual textbooks, and they're they don't know how to it's like paper, right? I'm like, What are we gonna do with this? Like, turn the page, come on, find the appropriate section. You can figure this out.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

Yeah, I I jokingly, you know, even before I'm like, listen, reading and research start out the same way. You have to like actually read. Like, that's why isn't I think it's we're in a society of instant gratification, instant answers, and it's just like there's some level of work that you have to do, and we're just not we're just not ready for them. So, what's next for you then? Where where does uh where does John go from here? I'm still loving teaching, you know.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

I love I have such a great place to be. You know, this is year 40. How many more years have we got? I don't know. You know, we'll see how that goes. But I see I I've been encouraged by good friends, co mentors type folks to really mean to this AI because there's a real need for us to talk about AI in a way that's gonna help our super studio scribes. I see that as almost a calling for me at this stage of my life. And I've thought about writing a book about it, but the problem about an AI book is the moment you printed it's so outdated. So I don't know. I I've been I I've really been leaning into my podcast, and that's been a lot of fun to explain kind of just my thinking process, and a lot of people are finding that and finding it very useful. And so that's been something I've been doing. So that's part of my creative outlet, I guess, is to just to help us through this huge transitional. I mean, this AI thing, Joe, I'm sure you got to breathe with me. I don't know. This is a civilizational moment for our whole civilization. This is as big, I as this is not original with me, but I believe it's as big as electricity. When electricity came, I think my grandmother who was born in 1901, and she was born without electricity. And and by the time she was in her 60s, she was flying on a jet plane cough. And we are in the middle of that level of civilizational change. And I don't know what the world's gonna look like, you know, when you and I are old and at the old folks' home, but uh it's gonna be a very different world, and I want to prepare my kids for that, and that's what I want them. I want them to thrive in this world and not struggle because you know, in every civilizational moment, somebody face the price, right? All the candlemakers are out of business, you know, or whatever. I mean, there's more than that. There were so many things that changed. You know, Henry Ford, the car, all of a sudden the carriage builders were out of business. There's so many, but we've got to help our students prepare for this world that we don't really know what it's gonna look like. They didn't know what electricity would do. Um, we don't know what AI is gonna do.

unknown 28:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Yeah, and I think we're not even having realistic conversations in education. I think I mean obviously I think you are, but I just in the last month alone with agentic AI, like the ability that you know, I think most educators, uh most teachers, just because we are siloed, we are isolated from the world, we think it's just chat GPT. We think it's just oh, it's just it's just gonna write their papers, and it's like it's like no AI can literally do tasks as humans now, like it is and it's it's fast. It's like, you know, okay, the carriage maker was replaced with the automaker, and it was just basically a better carriage with a bit, but it would there were jobs created. It's that this is the first time in human civilization that we're building something that is going to replace the jobs forever in those of very repeatable tasks, and so you know, even more so to push Bloom's taxonomy. If you're not able to create, if you're not able to think dynamically and synthesize and analyze and evaluate, where is your place? Because those days of you doing just rip repetitive white collar task is out the window.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

Yeah, yeah. It's replacing thinking, and somehow we've got to preserve human thinking first. So yeah, I see some of the advances that AI is doing. I'm fascinated and thrilled. Some of the stuff in medicine that I start seeing. I mean, some of this is awesome, but you know, in our world of education, people are clueless about agentic AI and all the other really big things that are having AI. Yeah, you're a heartner.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

Yeah, so well, let's uh let's end on a pause. What uh what's something I didn't get a chance to ask you that I wish that you wish I did?

SPEAKER_01 29:56

You know, I uh I spoke to our whole school a few uh a few weeks ago, and uh so we're we're a faith-based school, and so they had a chapel, and so I spoke at the chapel, and this message that I shared with them I think has resonated with a lot of students and even uh adults too have come up and talked to me. And the the sort of the the theme was you have to choose your hard. You know, see life is hard, and you can choose which hard you want to eat. For example, uh you I shared with my 10 examples. You choose to uh not exercise, and you can choose to exercise, and that's hard, but you can also choose to not exercise, and that's even harder. Choose your art. You can choose to eat right, or you can choose to not eat right, but both are hard, and they both have consequences. And then I talked about other issues that you know there's a there's a light on our society. I I would argue a lot of uh young people are getting into gambling. I say, you can choose to gamble to resist the temptation to gamble, you gotta choose your heart because each of them have consequences for stupid down the road, and that's true of all of us in all of our lives, is there's there's a good heart, and there is if you will, the easy heart, you can do this, but there if you take the easy road out, and this applies to our conversation about AI. But if you choose to, if you will, be stupefied by AI, then there will be a hard consequence down the road, and I don't want that to happen to my kids, and so that message that choose your heart, choose the right heart.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

Yeah, I love that. John, for everyone listening out there, educators, consultants, school leaders, families out there that are just interested. Where's the best place for them to find more about what you do and the people you serve?

SPEAKER_01 31:40

Yeah, you just go to my website, johnrudman.com, and John's fellow here, J-O-N No H Bergman, B-E-R-G-N-A-N-N.com, or my podcast is reachedudent.com. So these are the two websites, johnrudman.com, reach every student.com.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Nice. All right. John, thank you again for your time today. I really appreciate you coming on. It was great meeting you. Keep up the good work. That's awesome that you're still a practitioner and that you're in. And uh hope to connect to you again soon. Thanks, Joe. All right, thank you all for watching the supported learning podcast. We'll see you next time. Thanks for joining us on the Supported Learning Podcast. If today's conversation inspired you, challenged you, or sparked a new perspective, be sure to subscribe and share with a fellow change maker. We'll be back soon with more voices, more insight, and more ways to elevate the future of learning together. Until then, keep learning and keep pushing the conversation forward.