You're listening to the Support Ed Learning Podcast, where we challenge the status quo of education and reimagine what learning should be. I'm Dr. Joe Sebastian, and in every episode we dive into critical thinking, balloons taxonomy, educational innovation, and how AI is shaping the future of learning. Whether you're a teacher, parent, policymaker, or lifelong learner, you're in the right place to rethink, reshape, and revive education. What does it take to go from a below average test score to the top 1%? Steve Schwartz spent a full year figuring that out and then built one of the biggest independent test prep brands in the country, teaching others how. We're breaking down its system today. Welcome back to the Supported Learning Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Joe Sebastian. Families often ask me how to avoid spending thousands of dollars trying to figure out how to get into college or preparing for college and spending a ton of time in the process. And the answer usually involves finding the people who have figured out where the code can be cracked. And that's exactly what we're talking about today. And that's why I'm thrilled to welcome Steve Schwartz here on the podcast. He is the founder and CEO of LSAT Unplugged, a Columbia grad who raised his own LSAT score from 152 to 175, then built a test prep empire, which topped with a top-ranked podcast of 30,000 YouTube subscribers, millions of views, and a methodology that's helped thousands of students crack the high stakes test. We're going to dive into what actually separates students who beat these tests from the students who don't, and why do big test prep companies are why are big test prep companies getting it wrong? And what every family can learn from the world of high stakes testing at the graduate level. Steve, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me on, Dr. Joe. It's a pleasure to be with you today. Yeah, absolutely. So you take the LSAT and you don't become a lawyer. Yeah. That's a game. Kind of funny, right? Yeah. I mean, I always thought I was gonna go to law school. No one really takes the LSAT for fun, but I majored in political science. So law school was a natural next step for me. But over the course of that year that it took me to go from a 152 to a 175, I ended up discovering that I really appreciated the LSAT after all for what it is. It's a pretty tricky exam. I developed a certain respect for what goes into crafting those tricks and traps and started helping out my pre-law friends with their LSAT prep. And then it kind of just evolved from there. And here I am 20 years later, still teaching it, and I love it. But you're not just any graduate, you went to Columbia, right? Probably on that predestined track of next step is law school. What actually got you? What was the moment like where you're like, I don't want to go to law school, I want to build a test prep company? That's a really good question. I mean, it kind of evolved organically. I didn't really have a plan of law school, was the plan initially, of course, but when I started helping my friends with their LSAT prep, they would buy me dinner, I'd go over some LSAT questions with them, then started helping friends of friends, then started getting compensation beyond just dinner paid for my services. And then it kind of just grew and grew from there. And then when it came to apply to law school, I was like, you know what? I'm not sure if law school is the right path for me necessarily, but I really love teaching this exam. Why don't I just keep doing this? And then I started a blog. This was back in the 2005, 2008 time, back when blogs were big. Started uh posting my advice on there, then it quickly became into social media, and then it kind of just kept building and building over time. So there was no intention of going to school to build to be a business owner, was there? Like, what did you what did you major at Columbia? No, that wasn't the plan. I majored in political science. I mean, I was really interested in government, policy, law. I still am, you know, uh, for personal reasons, I still follow the news and such. A lot going on in current events, always, of course. But when it comes to my career, um, the LSAT just seemed to be my calling in terms of what I was best suited for professionally. But no, that was not the plan. Gotcha. Yeah, my uh my father's a lawyer, so he actually talked me out of law school while I was pre-law in my undergrad. He's like, Don't you want to be a lawyer? Yeah, it's like I don't know. I don't know if I'm gonna go to school for three months, but uh okay, cool. Yeah, I mean, from one business owner to another, I can I can understand, you know, especially for test prep, how it becomes a little bit like, well, this is this is working. Why do I keep going? But I guess you know, for me, it was the year three during um throughout the pandemic when I kept doing the same kind of thing, systems that were working and more and kids were getting results, like the similar high scores. That I'm like, I'm I have something here. I maybe I should just start a tutoring company. What were where was it for you that it was like I I want to make this a business? Like you was it just let me try, or was there like a defining moment where like I'm gonna I'm gonna make this a test prep company? Well, it kind of again, it was an organic process where it was like, let me just help as many people as possible, share as much knowledge as possible. I've always really felt driven to share what I've learned with a larger audience. And so I was initially tutoring solo. It wasn't like a big company at the start, it was just me literally teaching students in person in New York City where I after where I when I was in college. And so I started this blog back in 2008, and I was just literally sharing everything I could. When I would meet with a student, they would have a question, I would give them a write-up. I was like, I don't want to just answer this in a quick two-minute soundbite live in conversation. Let me really dig deep into this and write a blog post article about it. I would post it online. And back in 2008, the internet was a very different place. There was very little information online about the LSAT, which is a rather niche topic. What you would find was pretty generic. It was pretty broad. And I for to you wouldn't be able to find a top uh article about a specific LSAT question type. And so I would write articles on this question type and that question type and the various categorizations of LSAT questions and doing some data analysis about the LSAT. And people would discover me because they were Googling about the LSAT. And so I would come up and then I would not just be teaching in person in New York, I would be teaching people all across the country and all over the world. And back then Zoom wasn't around, of course. Back then it was phone and Skype tutoring. And so I started doing that. And then I would my calendar quickly became full. And so over time I started realizing I couldn't satisfy all the demands. So I started hiring other tutors to teach students as well. And that's when it really started to scale. Interesting. So your brand is called unplugged. What does that mean? What are you unplugging from? That's a great question. Um, so I guess it has multiple meanings. One of them is unplugged in the sense that it's digital, it's online, you're not tethered to any location because we are all remote. You that way you get access to the best tutors, the best coaches, regardless of location wherever you are in the world. We have students all over the all over the world, tutors all over the world as well. Also unplugged in this sense that we're not providing you with the standard experience. You mentioned earlier, the more big corporate options like Kaplan and Princeton Review, they're providing more of a mass market approach where they're applying the same strategies they do for the SAT to the ACT to the LSAT when these are very different exams with very different mindsets required. And so we're unplugging from that system. We are solely focused on the LSAT. We don't teach any other exams. We're solely focused on getting students into top law schools. And so we're focused on the LSAT and nothing more. So very niched in that. And yet you've still grown exponentially over the years. So your focus on like deconstruction, the deconstructing the logic and patterns of the test rather than memorization of tricks, that definitely hits home because we teach like skills over rote memorization. Like you actually have to apply a lot of these things and through through for us through writing. But for an LSAT student, what does that look like in practice? Yeah, I think it's the very much the same for the LSAT. So the LSAT is also a skills-based test. It's a test of pattern recognition. So you're not memorizing, you're not cramming. Not a test where you can do it all in just two weeks. Typically takes closer to at least two to three months, if not five to six months, to reach your fullest potential on the exam. And the skills really come down to analyzing and breaking down arguments. Can you identify the conclusion, the evidence, a subsidiary conclusion, counter premises, all the different argument parts, we help you deconstruct those so that when you come in to test day and you see a different question type, a different argument, you will be able to relate it back to all the similar questions you've done in the past. Because we're not going to be there on test day. We can't take it for you. And so we've got to empower you with the skills, with the confidence, with the clarity so that you can go in there and perform. And so that's why in our coaching, your the student is actually the one explaining the questions to us. So we can develop the confidence in them. What's the biggest mistake you see students making when preparing for the LSAT? I mean, like what's the pattern you see across standardized testing that kids are just or, you know, young adults are just getting wrong? Yeah, I think the biggest mistake is when students are just hammering away at questions without reviewing and learning from their mistakes. There's this big impulse to do all the practice tests, do all the LSAT questions, drill after drill after drill, but test day is not a drill. It's not enough to get the questions right. You got to get them right under test day conditions, considering pacing and time management and endurance. And so there are students who can get individual questions right, but their accuracy plummets in the context of a full-time exam. And so accuracy and theory and foundational work is just one part of the process. The test day conditions simulation is another part and review and analysis of your mistakes is yet another part. And students will typically neglect that part because, frankly speaking, it's not as fun, it's not as addictive as getting the instant feedback of whether you've got something right or wrong, but that's where the real growth happens. So the big test prep companies, you say that like they kind of just sell a brand, like a broad package, they don't actually niche down to um specifically like what works for that exam. So what are you doing differently than Kaplan and Princeton? Like, how does the program look differently for kids preparing for keep saying kids, young adults preparing for the LSAP? Yeah, well, I think that for a company like Kaplan or Princeton, I mean, they're frankly speaking, a lot larger than I am, right? So they're we're I'm more of a boutique operation. So for them, the LSAT is like nothing to them. It's a drop in the bucket, it's an insignificant line item on their on their revenue reports or whatever, right? So for them, it's not nearly as important a market as the SAT or the ACT, but the L set's our sole focus. And so we actually care to go deep on the particulars of the L set. I I heard that one of these companies, I'm not going to name names, but one of them was still had content in their platform for a version of the L set that no longer exists. There, there's this section of the LSAT called the Logic Games that was removed from the exam nearly two years ago. This company still had Logic Games lessons in their course materials. And so as students are going into their course, learning this material because they hadn't bothered to update it and remove that content. For us, that was a big deal. We removed that content the second they made the switch. So we're we're tracking closely the changes in the LSAT format. The LSAT's changed a lot over the past five, six years in part due to the pandemic and move to online and such. And so we've closely updated, we've closely tracked all that and updated our materials for every little minor change to the test. Whereas for these prep companies, they're just not following it as closely because it's not their focus. This episode is brought to you by supported tutoring, where we don't just help students get better grades, we help them become critical thinkers. Whether it's mastering AP exams, maximizing college applications, or building lifelong learning habits, our expert tutors focused on critical thinking, confidence, and real growth. Head to supportedtutoring.com to find the support your student deserves. So like let's bridge this for families listening, right? Most of our audience have kids taking the SAT or the ACT, and those are kids, like a lot of them prepare for those exams throughout the year. What principles from the LSAT and the prep that translate directly into those tests? Like, what should families be thinking about? Because we do have a lot of families that end up wanting to medical school for the MCAT or become lawyers with the LSAT. So where's the bridge? Like, where is the connection? That's a really great question. I mean, to be quite honest, I because I'm so deep into the LSAT, it's been a very, very long time since I looked at any of these other exams. I would imagine, though, that there are some general principles that would apply regardless. So if you think about for any given exam, what are the skills that you want to learn? You probably want to do some foundational work learning the different sections of the exam, the different question types on the exam. You learn those in isolation under untimed conditions. Then you pull it all together into individual sections to work on pacing and time management. In other words, you're doing the questions in a grab bag set where they're kind of mixed up, like they will be on test day. And then you finally uh coalesce into full-length timed exams to work on your pay your endurance as well. A lot of times students' performance will drop off on the final section of the exam because they're tired, they're fatigued. And so we got to build up your endurance by doing lots of full exam sittings. For us, we typically recommend doing at least 10 to 15 full-length timed exams before the big day. So that test day itself will be like just another run-through. There are also folks who need some time to get warmed up before they start the official sitting of the exam. And so for them, they might want to do some warm-up questions before they start. And so these are principles I think would probably carry across various standardized exams. But those are just some of what we teach our students for the LSAT. So you kind of you coach students on how to get into college for um sorry, for law school as well. Like, do you help you help them with that part of the process as well, or is it strictly just the LSAT? So we do help with the application essays, the personal statement, any optional essays, addendo, resume. We do help with that, but first and foremost, the LSAT. Because if you don't have that LSAT score, the other stuff's not going to matter. Law school missions is really a numbers-driven process. So we always say if you're we're if you're thinking about your essays, but you haven't yet gotten close to your goal LSAT score, you might just be procrastinating your LSAT prep. And so, first and foremost, let's get you that score. Once you've got it, then we can switch gears. So we help students as well with the admissions process for college. Um, you're you kind of walk me through that approach that it it really kind of comes down to it, it seems like the commonalities are the writing. What makes the difference is being able, at least for for common app and for essays in the college side of things, it comes down to that personal story showing an authentic voice. Is that something that also needs to come across in a law school application? Yeah, certainly. I would I would think that that's probably universal for college essays or personal statements. You want to share a personal story. I I always say that like it's part of your goal with this essays is to come across as a human and get admissions to like you. Otherwise, because the other parts of the application, for law school especially, your L set score and your GPA, those are just numbers. They're just metrics. And they're really important because of the of the unfortunate uh impact of the US news rankings in the graduate school world. But it's numbers driven there. But if you want to make the difference, if you want to, if you want to win in that tiebreaker situation, a lot of that will come down to the essays. They're not going to get you in, but they can push you over the edge in some cases. You've watched the testing landscape change for over 15 years. Like what is like where is standardized test going? What are we moving towards more test optional or is testing coming back just traditionally? I know with loss school, there's really no twist, but where do you see where do you where have you seen in terms of the philosophy of testing moving? That's a great question. I would say that probably on the on the long, long-term macro scale, maybe test optional will make some headway in the law school admissions world, but they've been talking about that for decades. My entire career since 2005. They've been saying, oh, there's going to be test optional. It's like every couple months there's another big headline, how the LSAT's going away. And it's not really true. I mean, the GRE has tried to make some inroads, but even so, fewer than 5% of law school applicants are getting in with a GRE score. The LSAT's still the main game in town, in part because of, again, the U.S. News law school rankings, and in part because the American Bar Association plays a role as well in terms of quality control and consumer protection, in that law schools have reason to only admit students who are likely to graduate law school and pass the bar exam. If you can't pass the bar exam and you're as a law school, your students can't pass the bar exam, you're at risk of getting shut down. And so the LSAT serves as a valid and reliable predictor of first-year law school grades and bar passage rates. If you remove that and law schools cannot properly evaluate applicants anymore in terms of their likelihood to meet those metrics, then the law school is going to be in trouble. And so Harvard and Yale can, of course, find plenty of great applicants who don't have LSAT scores, but for the most part, for the others, they do need that. And so I don't see it going anywhere as long as the ABA plays a role and as long as Bar Passage plays a role as well. You've built at LSAT unplugged from a blog to a full ecosystem. You do a podcast, YouTube courses, coaching from someone like from me in an educational space who wants to build something independent. Like what have you learned from building a brand in this space across all that various ecosystems? I think a large part of it is consistency and volume. I mean, like I'm really driven to share a lot of information as widely as possible. It's you know part of why I was like so excited to do this interview with you today. Um, I do, for example, like I teach classes every single day. I do uh live streams every single day. I'm meeting with students all day, every single day. Like this is literally what I do. I don't, I don't watch TV. Like I don't I wish I could, but I just don't have time for there's a million great shows I'd like to watch, but I don't just don't have space for that, unfortunately. We've gotten it like this is my passion, this is what I do every single day, day in and day out. And then like over the course of 20 years, like this is the culmination of that. And of course, I'm I'm still got time ahead of me, but like this is where I'm at now. Who knows where I'll be? But like I'm taking trying to take advantage of the different platforms to reach students. So beyond the podcast and YouTube are great, of course, I love those, but I also do TikTok and Instagram. I'm getting into LinkedIn now as well, just trying to share information across different spaces to reach students earlier and earlier in the process and help them understand and consume the information in whatever medium is best for them. Because there's been a lot of changes in the recent years, like I mentioned earlier, the else that's gone through through format changes, the pandemic changed things as well. And so I want to update folks on those changes as they're happening because otherwise, what happens is you have a student who's studying the logic games, which no longer are even part of the test. And like, I've just spent six months for nothing. We want to help you avoid making those mistakes. Where do you see AI changing uh test prep? Like where where where where are you seeing AI change what is already existing? How do you see it disrupting? I mean, AI is most likely going to disrupt the legal field, right? Paralegals, um, just being able to analyze case briefs or prepare briefs. Um are you seeing AI from a prep standpoint help students or become a crutch? That's a great question. Um, it's a it's a double-edged sort of like any technology, it has its pros and cons. I mean, in the legal field specifically, like in law firms, what I'm seeing is that some of these law firms are able to save money by cutting some of their support staff, and then it helps the attorneys themselves become more efficient. So imagine, for example, every lawyer used to have their own secretary. Once you have email and voicemail that could take messages for the attorney, they don't need as many secretaries anymore. It doesn't have to be a one-to-one ratio, right? So it helps the attorney be more efficient. They don't need the support staff. I think that's the next level of that, where the attorneys are still there, they're still able to work even more efficiently than before, take on more cases, bill more hours as well. So I don't know that's going to harm the legal profession for the attorney specifically, as much as it'll hurt the support staff in terms of where the cuts have already been made that we've seen recently. In terms of LSAT preparation specifically, I would urge students to be careful because AI is really convincing even when it doesn't know the answer. It'll make you think it does. And most of the time it might be right, but even if it's wrong 10% of the time, the issue is you don't know which 10% of the time. I've had it try to fool me sometimes. And so if you give it a really, really hard LSAT question, it could give you a compelling explanation for why the wrong answer is right. And I could spot it because I've been doing this a long time. But if the student can't spot it, they're being led down a wrong path. I have students every day telling me they're using AI to explain things, and I'm like, it could be okay, but in rare cases might not. Do you really want to take that risk? And then also, even just for generating fake LSAT questions for studying, I'm like, there's 8,000 real ones available to you from the people who make the LSAT. Why don't you just use those? You don't need to go beyond that. So I would tread really carefully. If you want to use it to try and help you like figure out an LSAT study schedule, I suppose that could be okay. It doesn't necessarily have the expertise, but it could make something halfway decent. But there are, of course, you know, premium services like mine that can help you do it with some real expertise behind it. And of course, take what I'm saying with a grain of salt, because that's what I sell. But then really think through like if you want to spend hundreds of hours studying for the LSAT with a study plan AI gave you, that might not be the optimal study plan. There's a cost of your time as well. Right. Right. All right. Well, let's move into that lightning round. Um, so just basically first thing that comes to mind, um, no explanation needed if you don't want to. All right. Okay. Okay, cool. What's the most overrated test prep strategy right now? Taking tons of practice tests and expecting different results. One thing parents overthink about standardized testing. If you to take the LSAT just to see how you'll do. Parents are often encourage their kids to take it right away without doing the proper prep first. Don't try to get over with do it right. What about something parents underthink? I think parents underthink the ROI on going to a lower-ranked law school and getting more scholarship money. They're often too focused on prestige. If you can go back and tell yourself when you were scoring 152, one thing what would it be? Review mistakes more. One book or resource every student should check out. A rule book for arguments by Anthony Weston. One sentence you wish every parent heard about high stakes testing. It doesn't define your child, but it's also really important. Got it. Steve, this has been incredible val incredibly valuable. I really, really appreciate you coming on. Um, for people who are watching and want to go deeper with you and your resources, where can they find you? Where should they check you out first? Yeah, of course. So at LSAT Unplugged on Instagram and TikTok. There's the LSAT Unplugged YouTube channel. I'm also offering a free LSAT tutoring lesson for everybody watching this now or later. The link is unpluggedprep.com slash start. I've also got a free LSAT cheat sheet available to everyone. Quick reference, everything on the LSAT, unplugged prep.com slash cheat sheet. Doors always open. I'm happy to help. Before we wrap, what's one thing you want people to remember from this conversation? Study for the LSAT with a proper plan. It'll make your entire journey that much more effective. Awesome. Steve, thank you. I appreciate you coming on. Appreciate your time. Glad we can make it work. Uh we'll put all that information about where people can find you. The links in the show notes and in the YouTube description. And uh hope we can chat again soon. We'd love to love to catch up on a couple couple months, see how everything's how this is going, especially with AI disruptions as well to the education space. Thank you, Dr. Joe, it's a pleasure. Absolutely. Um thank you all for watching, and we'll see you next time on the Supported Learning Podcast. Thanks for joining us on the Supported Learning Podcast. If today's conversation inspired you, challenged you, or sparked a new perspective, be sure to subscribe and share with a fellow change maker. We'll be back soon with more voices, more insight, and more ways to elevate the future of learning together. Until then, keep learning and keep pushing the conversation forward.