SPEAKER_00 0:00

You're listening to the Support Ed Learning Podcast, where we challenge the status quo of education and reimagine what learning should be. I'm Dr. Joe Sebastian, and in every episode we dive into critical thinking, Bloom's Taxonomy, educational innovation, and how AI is shaping the future of learning. Whether you're a teacher, parent, policymaker, or lifelong learner, you're in the right place to rethink, reshape, and revive education. What if everything your kid has been told about how to study is wrong? Anthony Nativier was a university professor whose memory broke down because of a health crisis, and he rebuilt it from scratch using a 2,000-year-old technique. Now he's taught millions of students how to memorize anything: AP bio vocab, foreign languages, math formulas. Today we're breaking it all down of how it actually works. Welcome back to the Supported Learning Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Joe Sebastian. Families often ask me how to navigate the maze of college prep without wasting thousands of dollars in years of time. And the answer usually involves finding the people who have figured out the rules of the game that schools aren't telling you. And that's why I'm thrilled to have Anthony Mativier here today. He is a world-renowned memory expert, the founder of Magnetic Memory Method, and the host of a YouTube channel with over 184,000 subscribers. He's a former university professor who rebuilt his own memory after a health setback and now teaches millions how to memorize complex information for life. We're going to dive into memory place palaces and why most studying is broken and how parents and students can use memory techniques to crush AP exams, foreign language, and pretty much any subject. Anthony, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

So good to meet with you and to help people with their mind and memory and studying. And maybe just as a preparatory remark, the health crisis never went away. It's always in maintenance. And so each and every day I deal with it. And, you know, I age. So it's uh it's not like it's not like I ever succeed entirely in rebuilding my memory, but rather it's uh a thing that I think people would be well served to know that it's uh a process that, you know, especially people who are in a similar position, should would be best helped to know about the the process-based nature of maintenance.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Uh I think well, can you do you mind sharing like what happened and how did it end up like kind of making your future of work where you are today?

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Yeah. Well, when I was in university, I had lots of health issues, and it reached a crisis point where I was just incapable of studying, you know, massive amounts of stress, mental health stuff with pills and whatnot that weren't really working. Plus, I just didn't take care of myself dietary-wise or fitness-wise or anything like that. And I basically self-medicated with alcohol and on and on and on. And so I didn't know at the time uh how bad all that behavior would uh affect things. But nonetheless, where memory came into play is the depression was guiding me down some dark avenues, and I wound up going to campus anyway one day, even though I couldn't study or focus, and I ran into some street magicians, and they did a card trick that sort of woke up an older interest that I had when I was younger, and I started to look into card magic and was evading life and all this sort of stuff, and then that's where I found memory techniques, specifically for memorizing cards to perform magic. And at some point, this sort of connector came that uh if I could memorize these cards, I could apply those principles to index cards that I was using in university. And as I started to do that, I noticed I started to feel a little bit better. And it was years later that I saw some research that might explain why there was a slight raising of mood and whatnot, but I got confidence also. And then over more than a decade, I just kept continuing to work and work and work. And then I found out about things like help optimization and sleep and fitness, and it continued to help improve my memory alongside ongoing memory training. And yeah, I I still have one of the digestive issues that I had at the time. It turns out that the depression I was facing was actually food reactions. So it took some time to actually realize, like more than a decade, to realize that I probably didn't have any of these kinds of clinical issues that had originally been diagnosed. And so I got just a lot better just by working on my diet and so forth. And then the use of memory techniques got better and better as well. But they're certainly not a magic bullet. And I have ongoing autoimmune disorder issues. And when the weather changes like it has recently here in Australia, it's starting to be winter, it gets exacerbated and then it becomes more challenging. And plus, I'm going to school myself again as an undergrad. So I'm an undergrad with a BA already and a two MAs and a PhD, but it's a very different feeling now for lots of reasons, and it's a much harder topic than I've ever tackled before. So I'm really under the gun to walk my talk, if you know what I mean. And uh it's uh it's exciting because I love studying, but it's also like this ongoing anxiety again that, you know, oh, I might destroy my own credibility if I fail one test because I'm supposed to be the memory guy kind of thing, you know. Uh so I've added my own stress, and then there is like anxiety-induced memory loss, which I might be giving myself by putting myself under pressure when winter is starting. My my symptoms of the autoimmune disorder are increasing. And it's just like a wild, a wild experience. It's like in a mood.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

So you you've obviously rebuilt your own memory, you're you're teaching it now to to hundreds of thousands, if not millions, other, but like from you go from professor to memory expert. Like, where does this all like where does all the techniques and what's work for you? Like, let's get into what it actually it is and how parents and students listening can like implement the playbook. Right. So you kind of dive us into your system, the um, the memory palaces, the foundation of what's your work. Uh so for parents who've are listening and never heard of this, like explain what that actually is.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Sure. Well, the memory palace is part of a larger study method that I use. And I believe it's I teach it foundationally because it's helped me almost the most, but in context. So I don't want to make it seem different than it is. And also, you know, it's uh it's a thing that's fascinating to me and fascinating to other people. So it's just a technique at the end of the day. It's like a another tool. And what it is, is it's using uh locations in combination with mnemonics to be able to revisit information by following journeys. So more practically, what that means is I just memorized something in in school myself called in Latin rezipsa loquator, which means, you know, uh it's the thing speaks for itself. And so what I did is I placed an image in my friend Rick's house because that Latin phrase starts with R, and then I used a number of images in a particular way to be able to revisit the sound and the meaning of this obscure Latin phrase that I had to learn. And then I can put it into space repetition along with other things that I'm studying. And as part of that, I wrote it down uh on a f on an index card or a flash card in case I need to revisit it and so forth. And then I start to use it in my speaking. Like now I'm taking an opportunity and hopefully I got that right. And I take risks uh so that I, you know, I don't worry too much if I make mistakes and I take the heat off myself. But anyway, being able to revisit that memory palace and have these associations laid out in a particular way, it gives me more opportunities to practice active recall principles, which is to bring what I've self-testing, bring what I've memorized to mind without rote learning, without looking again and again and again at the book, at the flash guard or anything like that. But I'm testing myself. And one of the ways that the memory palace technique works is that it's uh it's uh giving you this opportunity to try to solve this mystery puzzle. So it's like a game, and that's that's kind of part of active recall and uh also how memory works is you you think like why is my friend Rick you know waving a residential flag around while Ip man is there and so forth. So we have this raise ipsa loquitour, and there's licorice involved in the thing. So on a consonant by consonant basis, I'm revisiting his room with images and the familiar location and the nature of the images allow me to recall the sound and the meaning without rote learning. It's it's creative repetition, but there is I don't I don't think there's any rote to it because of the creativity that's involved. And then that's helping form memories through the challenge.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

And with the memory palace, like walk me through that. You can teach this for foreign language acquisition, like which is huge for kids taking an AP Spanish, AP French, AP Latin. How does the method work for the vocabulary specifically?

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Well, this the the way I teach it is let's say you have a list of a hundred words. What I would suggest that you do is you have a memory palace for every letter of the alphabet and put aside the idea that that sounds like a lot of work. It really isn't. But if you have one memory palace for every letter of the alphabet, you can run what's called the art of combination or ars combinatoria. And what that allows you to do is you take your 100 words, you alphabetize them, and then in the A Palace, you could use Abraham Lincoln in your images to follow through the living room of your friend Adam's house or whatever, and then trigger off all of these associations that bring back the target information. And then in the B Palace and the Z Palace and the Y Palace and the X and the C, like you're also getting effects, like you're getting recency effect, primacy effect, serial positioning effect. Those are scientific terms for why these uh procedures help form memories faster. And you're also getting chunking effects. And so scientifically, how it works is really you're trying to get every single advantage out of all of these things that are known to create memory in such a way that it is established as quickly as possible and lasts as quickly as possible. But the other part of the strategy is to be reading, writing, speaking, listening about what it is that I'm studying and using the information in context. So it's not really just about memorizing. And that's how the that's how the memory palace technique works as I teach it is an alphabetical combination as much as possible. And there's more nuances to that that I'm happy to share, but that's the overview.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Yeah, like kind of get into it here. Where what all like break that down? Like how, because it it you said it earlier, it's different than rote memorization, right? So how does that work?

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Well, rote would be, let's say I have some Spanish words, abajo, abuela, abrir, you know, that kind of stuff. Right. If I just keep looking at those words again and again and again, well, that's rote learning. But if I take my friend Adam's house and I have the first word with Abraham Lincoln in his bedroom, and then I have the second word, uh abuela, there, and then I have the third word, abrir, all in his bedroom by starting in one corner, going to the next wall, and then the next corner. What I'm doing instead is I'm creatively engaging my brain to revisit that by reconstructing the association of Abraham Lincoln digging with a shovel to get back to abacho, and he's digging tobacco specifically to get this abajo sound. But by the way, these techniques are ancient. They are taught in in such detail, going back to Aristotle with this alphabetical consonant-based linking. And it is, it's said in the ancient books that repetition just is a strategy, but it's not particularly uh effective. So the key difference is taking the words, laying them out along a familiar journey, and then doing it in a way that you can create a link between the sound and the meaning, or if you already know what the meaning is because it's in your mother tongue, then you're just focused on the on the words, either keywords or verbatim for speeches. And you know, I can recite Shakespeare backwards if if that's of any interest, because that's what this technique allows you to do.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

That's yeah, I mean, when when parents come to us and say kid just has to memorize, this is a completely different, completely different strategy, right? It's not just like flash car. This is building literally palaces. But what about for a student who's studying the night before an exam, like an A-Peak bio exam, uh, with 200 terms to learn? What's the practical approach? Where would they start?

SPEAKER_01 13:13

Honestly, I would never recommend such a thing. I just I just can't. What I would suggest to that person is, you know, if that's the situation you're in, strive to not get yourself in that situation again. A full alphabetical memory palace network may take you a weekend, and it may be that you can't complete a full one in a weekend. But if you just get started, then you're on the path to being able to use these kinds of memory techniques and start to embed them in other best practices for learning and retention. But I don't I I honestly can't advise people to cram because I've avoided it myself throughout my career like crazy. And one of the reasons why is because I've known that I have all these health issues, and it just is not good for me to put myself in a position. So I don't really have any cramming experience to to even base upon what I would suggest.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

This episode is brought to you by Supported Tutoring, where we don't just help students get better grades, we help them become critical thinkers. Whether it's mastering AP exams, maximizing college applications, or building lifelong learning habits, our expert tutors focus on critical thinking, confidence, and real growth. Head to supportedtutoring.com to find the support your student deserves. So Okay, so for someone who wants to build this into daily practice, for a student who wants to build real memory power over time, not just one for the exam, where do you start with that?

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Well, if you want to use the memory police technique specifically, I suggest you start with a pen and a paper or colored pencils and a piece of paper, and then write down the letter A and think, what location do I know that starts with the letter A? And you might not have an immediate answer. So then you go to letter B and you just go through the whole alphabet and try to work out what locations you have. And and you know, be free. Apple store, Applebee's restaurant, you know, Uncle Alex, all that sort of stuff. And try to get a card. And then by the time that you get through that alphabet, you should have at least three to work with. But let's say you only have one. Well, then you have one to work with. But chances are, once you get into the exercise, you'll have a decent set, especially if you're in university and you have different college buildings that have names and so forth, or the names of the professors can help you. That this classroom is for, you know, Professor Owens is now an old memory palace. And then what you do is you do that same exercise again, A to Z, but then you think of the most famous people or the most known people to you. So Adam Sandler was a famous actor when I was uh growing up, or a younger person, uh, and then Al Pacino, and I put those celebrities down, and then I start to, you know, you mentioned the uh biology exam, I think you said bio. If I'm doing something like that, and let I don't know if this is related to biology or not, but if there's, you know, some kind of top thing like thoracic cavity is affected by whatever thing in the environment, then I would think a Thor because of the TH, and I would have a T memory palace ready to go. So that's how you get started with this. And you you're basically assembling what I sometimes call mental Lego so that you can snap things together. And this is just a I think a more robust, stronger version of what you'll find in most training about mnemonics.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

So when students implement this, when when people implement this, how fast can they build those palaces? How fast can they implement them? Um so we said not the night before, but we said they start like, what is what are reasonable timelines to make significant gains?

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Once you're in the swing of things, a memory palace shouldn't take more than two to five minutes to assign. And then starting to use your mnemonics to associate is an unknown entity. You know, I have had words in my language study like expatendorum, and I thought, oh, that'll be easy, right? But it actually turned out to be rather challenging. And uh there are really simple short words that I thought would be simple uh uh or that were challenging, even though I thought they'd be simple. So I don't really know that we can put an exact time on things, but what does get reported over and over again, especially in medicine where mnemonics is quite used quite a lot, and in law, that people just have a better recall effect. And so exactly how much time you're gonna spend is really up to how well practiced you are using the techniques, how prepared you are with these systems, like the alphabetical memory palaces and the alphabetical celebrities and friends and whatnot that you assign in advance, so that when you look at alloantigens, you're already thinking about Weird Al or Al Pacino, and you've got Gene Simmons in there because it starts ends with Jen, right? And you're just able to connect these mental Lego pieces together. And then the the piece that we didn't talk about with the Mary Palace is is what I call recall rehearsal, which is revisiting that palace to produce the information in writing. So how long that's gonna take is again a kind of unknown entity. But in my own studies, I'm I'm I'm in the second semester of my new undergraduate career here. My own studies, I spend maybe, I don't know, an hour or two on things a day. And I just constantly go back to the memory palace, and then I I revisit things and just make little notes, and I keep reading within the topic. I do extra reading to get extra exposure. So that's why I say it's not really quantifiable. I'm kind of like a Yoda guy. It's like do or do not. There is no try. I'm in love with studying. I'm doing I and look, I'm studying some really boring and challenging stuff. So I make myself be in love with it. I create I choose the attitude of being in love with some of the most obscure and difficult things possible, just so that I I don't worry about how long it's taking. I worry more about can I recall this information and can I cite it from memory and can I write it down and have it be as accurate as possible and do my best.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

So what is the worst way for a student to memorize something?

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Well, the worst way is in a way that doesn't create the effect of being able to recall it and use it confidently and to achieve your goal. So I I don't I don't know. Like some people, they just do okay with rote. I'm it's not that I'm you know have a bias against some technique that a person would want. I I'm a cheerleader for demonics just because of the proven effects that they've created for so many people. But the worst is just the thing that doesn't that prevents you from achieving your goal.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

So you see students who can't focus, get distracted, struggle to retain, how much of that is techniques they're using versus something deeper? Because we I think we have a focus deficiency today with how our world is structured around social media and digital screens, but how much of that is, you know, an ADHD ADD is very prevalent in America. Um how much of it is just they haven't developed the techniques versus a real issue, in your opinion?

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Oh, I think we have so many problems that it's not even funny. Because we could also add the appropriateness of being forced to choose a occupation at such a young age when we have scientific evidence that the brain isn't even fully formed till whatever age, 26, 28, like that sort of thing. And the idea that 19-year-olds are being pressured to choose what they're gonna study instead of having a more open model, I think that that's a huge problem on top of social media. But that problem existed long before the internet. So I think that we could just focus all day on the possible problems. Rather, I think what what what helps and what's great about the internet, even though there's lots of problems with the internet, or historically what has been great with the internet, that's changing so fast and in a way that I'm worried about, is that we've just had the opportunity for people who want to study to be able to study. And so I think the real challenge is finding ways to either self encourage to be a person who loves studying, or that being a person who's is is in love with studying is able to overcome any obstacle and knows that there's an alternative for them, knows there's a path. And if we can get that going, then I think. That's going to be one of our better strategies rather than to focus on all the problems. It's just like, what are the solutions? And we're seeing some incredible things, even though there's worries about what's happening with AI, where people, if they're asking, if they're able to use the tools appropriately, they have opportunities. And that's just the way that I think it's always going to be. It's how the tools are used. And so I think right now we have a huge opportunity for people to just fall in love with studying in a completely unprecedented way in history.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

So with that, with the invention of AI and AI on the rise, some might push back and say, why do you need why do you even need to study anymore? Why do you why do you even need to memorize anymore when AI can give you anything?

SPEAKER_01 22:45

Well, it can't give you anything. That's part of the reason. What it can give you is outputs. And the outputs are conditioned by corporate control. They're conditioned by what you put into it, they're conditioned by how you train it. That requires critical thinking. In order to have critical thinking, you would be very well served to have your memory as exercised as possible in good fit shape due to fitness and good sleep and sun exposure and all this sort of stuff. So look, uh, the way I would say this is that it's memory against memory. The machines are a kind of memory, and we are a kind of memory. But where does the machine of the memory exist? It exists in our memory. Now, this might be philosophical and way down a rabbit hole, but the reality that, as far as I can tell, is that we perceive the machines inside of our memory, and it doesn't necessarily perceive what we are inside of its memory. That memory is based on tokens, and those tokens are controlled by economic forces and on and on and on and on. So we need our memory to compete, so to speak, with the nature of these tools. And we have a chance, I believe. And if you read the memory code by Lynn Kelly, she's talked about historically how that tribes around the world have used their memory to survive drought, plague, pestilence, all this stuff. And I think that we're in a moment where we had better get our memory sharper than ever before, precisely because of the fact that it's memory against memory in every possible way that I can imagine.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

You also talk about the mental health benefits of memory training. What's the connection there?

SPEAKER_01 24:21

Well, part of the connection, and this is me speaking speculatively based on what I've come to understand. So, you know, not uh any kind of medical advice or anything like that. But what I've come to understand is that there's a part of the brain called the task positive network, and then there's or a part of functioning, and then there's the default mode network. And default mode network is like me, me, me, I, I, I, worry, worry, worry, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And task positive network is more in the zone, in flow. And so part of why you would just feel better is because if you're in flow and you're just with a task and you're not really concerned by all this other stuff, then you have that benefit of being in flow. Uh, and then there may be dopamine considerations that people want to look into uh because there's a difference between phasic dopamine and uh tonic dopamine. And so when you're constantly interrupting yourself, uh you're getting the so-called dopamine spikes. And for about a year ago, it was in vogue for people who have who read media ads for certain softwares to say, oh, dopamine spikes aren't a problem and all that sort of stuff. And I was just like, but but you're reading ads for these softwares. So, like, what are you talking about? Dopamine spikes are absolutely something that you should be concerned about. And tonic dopamine, having a steady level of dopamine, which would place you in flow, would give you the benefit of not being irritated all the time, not having your attention yanked all over the place all the time. And then you would be able to study and focus almost certainly for longer because you're protecting that kind of state in how your brain manages focus and attention. So there's lots of ways there's lots of things that we could talk about along those avenues. But my core concern is that people all always look into this themselves and learn to remember critical thinking principles so that they're asking the best possible questions, which just comes back to making sure your memory is as sharp and strong as possible. So you're always questioning.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

So if we're gonna we're gonna transition to lightning round right now, and that can just be we're just gonna hit you with a couple questions. Uh, can be the first thing that comes to mind. No explanation needed unless you really want to. Okay. Sound good? Yeah, I'm excited. So, what do you think the most overrated piece of study advice is right now?

SPEAKER_01 26:48

It's probably, you know, use use Chat GPT or use a uh a chatbot. And the reason why I think it's the most overrated piece of advice is because you should first say, uh, make sure that you get some training in how that you're going to use these devices appropriately before that you start to use them.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

About one book every student should read about learning.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Oh, probably Learning How to Learn by Barbara Oakley and Terrence Sainowski. It's I believe it's directed at young people, but I think I think it's good for everybody of all ages. It's got really great illustrations and some easy explanations of the science to understand. And it's just a fantastic book.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

How about one thing parents overthink when it comes to studying?

SPEAKER_01 27:39

Uh probably I just have to guess. They they they probably underthink that the the way that they could also be helping their their people, their their family members. Really, I don't know what they overthink. I I my intuition is that they underthink, and that I'm inspired to say that because I have parents who have trained in my memory training and who have bought big whiteboards to, or at least one person has bought this giant whiteboard, and he had his son learn something that's called a 00 to 99 PAO system that works in combination with memory palaces. And I have this picture, it's so epic. That young person, he was struggling so hard. His father studied the techniques alongside with him as an adult student going to university. They learned it together, and then that young person wound up getting a full scholarship to a major university in Florida. And I just recently heard that now he's finishing writing his thesis, and he's just gone from strength to strength. And that's because that parent did it with his son, not just, hey, go learn this study technique, but actually did it together. That excites me and inspires me so much, and I betcha that will reproduce in so many ways. So I would I would think about that, and and I don't know if you can overthink using memory techniques together as a family.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Well, one thing parents underthink.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

I think uh we underthink the ability of humans to adapt to whatever's going on, and we basically worry too much. But we do have to balance thinking about all the things that can go wrong, but I think we just underthink the positive that's going on.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

How about best subject to start a memory palace with the one that you well, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Best, I'm so so scared of words like best. I think I think really the the best topic is the one that you actually think you're going to use the technique for and give it a serious good old college try, which I I mean 90 days, so your brain can actually build the habits and the skills and the understanding that will turn this into a lifelong asset for you.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

How about if you could whisper one piece of advice to a parent of a high schooler studying for APs right now, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 29:58

Help them understand the value of memory training and the scientific reasons why it works and how that they have every opportunity to learn it. And if they need help and guidance, there's lots of free resources, and there's other resources that they can invest in with formal training, but just to under just to understand the value of memory as not just for short-term, but also long-term benefits in life.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Amazing. Anthony, it's been incredibly helpful and valuable. Uh, for families who want to go deeper with you, learn more about memory palaces, where's the best place to find you?

SPEAKER_01 30:36

The home base is magneticmemory method.com. And I think if you search Anthony in memory, I'll probably come up on YouTube. And yeah, that's basically my two places I hang out the most, my own website and YouTube. Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

And before we wrap, what's one thing you want people to remember from this conversation?

SPEAKER_01 30:55

I hope they would remember that there's someone really passionate about memory to the point that he spent now, I think, over 15 years giving away as much information free about it as possible. And that I believe that memory is the number one most valuable treasure you could ever, ever work on, and you can do it right now. You have the opportunity, and it's just there for you. So dive in.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

Well, Anthony, again, thank you for your time and for those all listening. Remember, we'll put all this information in the description and the show notes, and we'll see you next time on the Support Learning Podcast. Thank you all for tuning in. All right, thank you, sir. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Yeah, I hope that uh that serves. Not too much uh prevaricating, but I want to say what I think is true.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Uh GPU so uh appreciate it. What are uh where are you based out of again?

SPEAKER_01 32:00

I'm sorry, I forgot. Uh I'm in uh Sunshine Coast in Australia. Wow. What time is it there? It's now 8 30 in the morning on uh Thursday.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

14 hours ahead. Okay. Very nice. Yeah, I'm at I'm across the May Big Pond in Pittsburgh.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Oh wow, I've been I've been to Pittsburgh. I did poetry reading there years ago decades decades ago now. I love that city. I would I've only been once very briefly for a weekend, but it was amazing. Awesome. Yep. All right.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

Well, thank you. Uh, we'll get this cut up and send it to you as well. All right. Thanks for joining us on the Supported Learning Podcast. If today's conversation inspired you, challenged you, or sparked a new perspective, be sure to subscribe and share with a fellow change maker. We'll be back soon with more voices, more insight, and more ways to elevate the future of learning together. Until then, keep learning and keep pushing the conversation forward.