SPEAKER_01 0:00

You're listening to the Support Ed Learning Podcast, where we challenge the status quo of education and reimagine what learning should be. I'm Dr. Joe Sebastian, and in every episode we dive into critical thinking, Bloom's taxonomy, educational innovation, and how AI is shaping the future of learning. Whether you're a teacher, parent, policymaker, or lifelong learner, you're in the right place to rethink, reshape, and revive education. Michael Strong believes the standard school system isn't broken because of bad teachers or bad funding. He thinks it's broken by design and that the cure has been sitting in plain sight for over hundreds of years. He spent decades building schools that prove it. Today, we're unpacking what that actually looks like. Welcome back to the Supported Learning Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Joe Sebastian. We're going to dive in today about which a really, really cool topic. I'm thrilled to talk to Michael Strong. He's here tonight today to talk about the fact he's the entire school system in a nutshell. And he's the founder of the Socratic Experience, the author of The Habit of Thought, and co-founder of the conscious capitalist movement with Whole Foods, John Mackie. He spent decades designing experimental schools. At his current virtual program, he is doing remarkable work. We're gifted, twice exceptional, and highly creative students. And we're going to dive into what real intellectual education looks like, why the Socratic method math matters more now than ever, and what parents can do for their kids who feel stifed by the current school system and maybe their current school. Michael, welcome to the show. Thank you. It's great to be here. So I've kind of given them the highlight reel, but if like we were to hear from you, give us like the 60-second snapshot of like who you are, what specific problem you solve in education.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Yeah. So somewhat unusually as a school founder, I love learning and I hate school. A little bit unusual like that, but I was a straight A student and went to Harvard, but I was bored silly. I discovered Socratic dialogue, both in high school, where I loved it in the one class I had there. And then I actually left Harvard to go to St. John's College, where for four years it's uh Socratic discussions of the classics of Western civilization. So I loved it so much. I've been in education for almost 40 years, started in public schools, but then have created a series of schools where Socratic dialogue, in our case at the Socratic Experience, for two to four hours a day is foundational. It emphasizes independent thinking because we don't tell the students what to think. We want them to argue based on the texts and work we're working on. We want them to argue using reason and evidence. And then we take that independent thought into creative and entrepreneurial projects. So my experience, many entrepreneurs and creators are thinking on their own. They're outside the system. And as a consequence, many of our parents are creatives and entrepreneurs. So that I'll that's a short version.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

So with your experience and years of experience designing experimental schools across both charter and private, what is the one thing about how education currently works that is almost certainly wrong?

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Well, thank you. So two things, I'll I'll cheat and do two things. One is the goal ultimately of uh the humanity side, language arts and social studies, is I see it as high-level reading, writing, and thinking. And of course, it's across different domains in history versus language arts and so forth. But if your child is world-class reading, writing, math, or reading, writing, they're in good shape. On the math side, I think it needs to be very personalized. So we actually use math academy, which allows for highly personalized math. So instead of one size fits all grade level education all the way through, our focus is on high-level reading and writing through Socratic discussion. We'll get into the writing piece in a minute. And then personalized math. So some kids do two years of math a year, other kids go more slowly.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

And you wrote the habit of thought, and that title alone obviously tells a story, but what habit are most schools building instead?

SPEAKER_00 4:20

So I'm a big fan of John Taylor Gotto, New York State Teacher of the Year, who describes conventional education as 13 years of training and how to be passive and dependent. I would I want our students to think actually a source of excellence for me is when students are reading, thinking, and discussing ideas outside of class. I discovered this morning we have a group of kids who wake up at six in the morning to uh write together. They love writing, and this is mostly fiction, that's that they do it in the morning, and somebody couldn't do 6 a.m. So he started another writing group in the evening. So Maria Montessori said the sign of excellence in a teacher is what the children are doing uh when I'm not there. And so I see when our students are doing entrepreneurial, creative, or intellectual activity on their own, that's a victory.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

So you've seen thousands of students go through different models. Let's talk about what you've been noticing. After decades of working with students, what's the difference between kids who come alive in a Socratic style classroom and the ones who don't?

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Good question. So, first, you know, there's a Yale study that shows 75% of high school students are unhappy. On the other end, 25% are happy. So, you know, and there are some kids who like the structure of school. I know adults who loved school. You know, there are people that like the structure of school for a variety of reasons, different personalities, different styles. That's okay. But I think a lot of students do not love the structure of school. You know, just I I'm many of our students are neurodiverse. You mentioned two E students and so forth. And, you know, I'm the kind of person who has 80 tabs open on my computer working on seven projects simultaneously. I couldn't sit through a class. I had a hard time when I was in school, but now there's no way I could sit through a class. So I would say, you know, a lot of students who are ADHD love to be thinking in real time, working on entrepreneurial and creative projects. You know, there are students who want thinking on their own, creating on their own, building things on their own. So a lot of this is style. I would say some of us want to take initiative, do things, and we want support. And so our program provides support for that. We have one-on-one mentoring, we have very high-touch classes. But I think some students like the structure of going through a sequenced curriculum that's managed from the top down. Other students want support in discovering and developing who they are, discover and develop their unique genius, as I put it.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

So the two E students, the twice gifted students or twice exceptional students that are that are oftentimes highly gifted. Um, they're also highly creative. What do you see happening to those students in standard schools that parents need to understand?

SPEAKER_00 7:00

You know, I'll I'll give you a few examples. So I had one student who had actually been kicked out of three different schools for behavior problems. I think he had a diagnosis of uh, you know, I forget what the technical terms are, basically being obstinate. But, you know, uh you gave him freedom, gave him independence. He was, we had to work with them in terms of getting him to be a little bit more respectful to his peers, but he was on the edge of the fine, and then he became a rock star entrepreneur. He created three businesses, he owned three cars by telling him, he graduated from high school, just shown. I had a different student who was to be uh at a public school in New Jersey, had a full-time aide who would walk him from class to class because he was not capable of managing his own life. But he came to our school, was very, again, one-on-one mentoring, high touch, he was super intellectual, loved the sync discussions, and he flourished and he's actually teaching for me now. And so I think a lot of people don't realize that there are some students, I create, I coin the term scholar normative, that you could say it and these students are neurodiverse, or you could say, why should they have to fit into the box of school? Again, some people fit into the box of school, great. Hurrah for them. I didn't. Many young people don't. Why can't we create a program around what they love and how to help help them excel rather than forcing them to do the same thing as everyone else all day?

SPEAKER_01 8:21

What does it mean to actually treat a teenager as an intellectual equal?

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Oh, great question. Well, first, when I interview young people, the first thing I ask them is what do they love? What are they passionate about? And for many of them, that's the first time they've had a school person, certainly ahead of school, ask about their interests, especially as a lead-in. And so I want to explore who they are, what they you know, do they spend their time, some play a video game, some read, some are outdoor building things, some are trying to figure out ways to make money. So it's taking seriously who they are. And I feel as if my job is to help structure their program around who they are so they see meaning and connection between their passions and a pathway to success. You know, I do have a lot of experience about what it takes to get a job and get into college and all that. So very often I'll be realistic with them about well, if you don't develop these math skills, then these options will not be open for you. So it's not as if we say do whatever you want, but it would say it's starting from who they are and what they care about, and then connecting with my experience uh with as an educator in the job market. Well, let's craft this path so you have the most odds of success. So that's starting with who they are and what they care about is number one.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

And you know, it's unique because you're actually pairing and blending Socratic seminars with entrepreneurial projects. And that's an unusual pairing that we don't see in traditional schools. Why those two together specifically?

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Oh, it's a great question. I think part of it is I love the intellectuality of Socratic seminars, and I also love uh to be an entrepreneur in creating things, so it's a reflection of who I am. And I would even say at the staffing level, we have some very intellectual teachers and some very entrepreneurial teachers, but it is a little bit of a different culture. And yet, the way I see it is we do need strong intellectual foundations. Uh, there are, you know, a lot of great entrepreneurs read two hours a day. You know, John Mackey, my friend, he reads two hours a day, incredibly thoughtful and articulate on philosophy, literature, political science, economics. You know, I think people don't realize that intellectual depth becomes very useful when you're trying to understand the world and create a business in the world. So although I acknowledge that they are different stereotypes, they actually blend together much more powerfully than many people recognized. And I'd also add that the intellectuals, it's useful for them to be expected to go out and take initiative and start something and fail in the real world. So both sides of it uh complement each other.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

So do you think, I mean, using the current the obviously the current school system, you don't believe, actually promotes entrepreneurship to that level, right? That we're it's a compliance-based machine and and kind of by design, um, it's a bit, you know, the book that mentions uh John Rockefeller of uh schools designed to create workers. How, I mean, how do we fundamentally change that? And why is that so important to have that entrepreneurial spirit for learners? Because it kind of seems like it coincides with creative thinking and creative problem solving.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

Huge. So a couple of things. First, uh, I think when public schools originated in the US, they tend to be very local, you know, the one-room schoolhouse, and there was more initiative allowed and supportive. One of the things that happened in the 20th century, and so in some ways, beyond design, I would say, you know, boiling the frog to death, is that we went from 200,000 school districts in 1920 to fewer than 20,000 school districts in 1970. So the school consolidation took kind of locally run schools and created these large bureaucracies, and then long history of layer and layer of bureaucracy kind of crushing the spirit, I would say, of students and teachers alike. I know a lot of teachers who no longer enjoy their work because of all these layers of bureaucracy. So I think the solution very much is school choice. I'm very big on educational scholarship accounts, micro schools, learning pods, virtual schools, different ways to learn. And I would add that in the age of AI, taking initiative is the most important thing. I actually read a Substack post by a VC last night where he said, at this point, having a traditional college degree is not so valuable. What they look for when they invest in companies are people who take initiative, who build things, create things, have a vision, and that's more important than the credential. And I think as anybody can learn anything in real time with AI, we'll have some people who are kind of passive consumers of AI slop on the internet, and other people who leverage AI to create amazing things quickly and well. And so I see a bifurcation and the active initiative-oriented learner, the autodidact entrepreneur is going to have an incredible future. And sadly, people who passively consume learning in school and then passively consume slop on the internet might not be such a great world. So creation over consumption, right? More so. Huge. Huge. And actually, just briefly on that, yeah. Although I'm critical of screen time, you know, there are kids who say in Minecraft, I know two teens who became world-class coders on Minecraft because they were going into Minecraft and building things. And so, well, I'm not a big fan of, you know, first-person shooter dopamine games. Hey, if your kids on Minecraft and learning to code at a high level, hello. So, yeah, absolutely create it, creation versus consumption.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

This episode is brought to you by Supported Tutoring, where we don't just help students get better grades, we help them become critical thinkers. Whether it's mastering AP exams, maximizing college applications, or building lifelong learning habits, our expert tutors focused on critical thinking, confidence, and real growth. Head to supportedtutoring.com to find the support your student deserves. A lot of parents uh and a lot of high achievement students, they're they're pursuing these top schools because they think it almost guarantees success when we say we want real authentic development because that actually beats manufactured achievements. So kids who are doing real work, you know, engaging in intellectual curiosity more than just doing performance-based tasks for the system. So, what does it look like? Like how where what does it look like an average day on a Tuesday morning, specifically with these student cases? Kind of tell us where where that, where a kid is stimulated in your school differently than the traditional school, and how that looks towards other people that are interested in in that.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

No, great question. So our standard program consists of two core classes Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, every day but Wednesday, and then after school or later later in the day, electives. So Wednesday or electives, and then we have late in the day electives. So on a Tuesday morning at 10 a.m. U.S. Central time, it'd be 15 to 1 Zoom in a Socratic humanities class. It starts with a discussion of personal growth topics. So the guide might ask, how do you set goals? How do you learn from your mistakes? What do you do if you're not getting along with your friends? And after a week or two of getting used to each other, the students really enjoy thinking about how to have better lives. I think one of the things we find is most teens really do want to have a great life, but we need to give time and space and guidance and supervision to help get them going in that. Then after maybe a half hour of that kind of discussion, we take a five-minute break and then do Socratic Humanities Proper, where we read mostly classics. Um, you know, in ninth grade, we read global classics, so Confucius, uh Hindu texts, Buddhist texts, Jewish, Christian, Greek, Roman, Zen, you know, all over the world, Taoist. And so it depends on what level, but they're reading, thinking, and discussing big ideas. And uh on the one hand, they learn to read difficult material, but because they're arguing, most kids either love to argue or love to listen to their friends argue. Because they're discussing Confucius or Plato or whatever, they love the discussion. Then we connect that to writing. What many people don't realize is that talking and arguing is a great way to motivate writing. So give you an example, we had we read two essays from Yale on should we bring the woolly mammoths back from extinction? One argued, yes, science innovation is cool. The other ecological disaster, don't mess with mother nature. The kids have strong opinions on this, they argue with each other for an hour, and then yes, we should because of A, B, and C, or no, we shouldn't because of X, Y, and Z. And as a consequence, we have very little problem with AI cheating at our school because they want their opinions, not the generic, you know, LLM version of what of reality. And so I would say this development of their own opinions, I call it conscious development of personal identity, with we get them high-level reading, high-level writing, and also thinking about who they are and where they're going in life, what they stand for and why.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

And what are the results for those kids in terms of where they end up after they graduate school?

SPEAKER_00 17:28

No, great question. We have a very wide variety. You know, I'll give you a couple of examples. I had one kid who raised 1.2 million from a venture capitalist at 16, actually for his Minecraft mod company. He went to Stanford. Of course, he had great SAT scores with AP scores, but of course, Stanford wants a kid who's already a successful entrepreneur. I I have a different kid who uh had a six-figure business as a digital marketer. He made 200,000 as a junior, uh, 500,000 as a senior, and he chose not to go to college. And instead, his company is probably making 5 million this year. He's one year out, he has about 10 employees, so he's rocking in that respect. We've got other students, we've got somebody going to the University of Virginia, somebody went to Howard University. We've got other students who you know go to good universities and enjoy their time there. We've got some young people who choose community college because it's cheaper for the first two years and then they go off. That's kind of a whole trend of uh say many or fooster years. We've got some students who decide to travel for a year afterwards. So very you know, diverse based on particular pathways.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

So you're a big believer that teenagers should be doing that real authentic entrepreneurship work no matter what, not really preparing for some like imagined future. So, you know, for a parent out there that is being fed information on how to get into a Stanford, how to get into UC Berkeley or an Ivy League school where, oh, you have to do, you have to do this manufactured passion project, you have to do this really expensive internship. And they just don't know, right? They're not in your school, but they just don't know, well, I I'm not in your school. I don't I'm I only have what I have. How do I get my kid to do something amazing like that when there's really no structure that exists to provide them that?

SPEAKER_00 19:17

Really, really good question. So I would say a lot of this, a lot of our secret sauce is supporting the passion, a real passion. Again, the manufactured, that's the whole problem. People can smell a manufactured passion project from a mile away. As a quick aside, at one point I ran across some college admissions consultants whose pitch was, we'll make your kid interesting. Like, what? Yeah, let's let's not kill their interest instead of trying to pay somebody as juniors to make your kid interesting all of a sudden. So a lot of this is supporting their passion when they're early, and a lot of failure. I would say, you know, where our rock star entrepreneurs, they failed when they were 12, 13, or novelists who are writing great novels when they're 17, 18. Yeah, they they wrote garbage for a while. You know, Silicon Valley, fail faster. So a lot of this is supporting your child's passion, real passions from an early age, and letting them change. Give you a different example. I had a student who wanted him to be an entrepreneur passionately until his senior year in college, in high school. Then he decided to write a novel, wrote a brilliant novel, kind of gory and grizzly, but it was well written. And then he got a took Harvard CS50, Harvard's introduction to computer science, and got a job in a software firm here in Austin. So, all over the place, different real-world story. At one point, I had a friend who was on a Harvard Alumni Admissions interview committee. She said one of the students they led in had dropped out of high school, joined a Buddhist monastery for a year, and came back, and that got Harvard's attention. So a lot of this is don't manufacture things. These places want bright, interesting, motivated people. So support your child's authentic interests and don't have a predetermined destination in mind. I have a friend who's a great Montessori educator, and she was asked, is Montessori good for getting into the Ivy Leagues? And she said, Yes, if the child wants to, and no if the parent wants them to. So again, a lot of this is, I think parents need to, I call it our job as parents and educators is to help identify your child's genius and develop it. But that means we should not have a predetermined opinion of what it is. I know I know people who want their child to be a scholar, but they're actually an entrepreneur or a creator or something else. And so I think we want to personalize this path and be supportive. A confident, capable, purpose-driven human being, I think, is going to win regardless of where they go to college or what they do.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

So you co-founded conscious capitalism with John Mackey. How did that work feed into how you think about educating kids?

SPEAKER_00 21:46

A good question. Actually, going back to the entrepreneurial piece, before meeting John, I was more purely Socratic intellectual. And working with him, our original vision was entrepreneurial solutions to world problems. And as a consequence, I probably One of the best networks in the world, a purpose-driven entrepreneurs. So, you know, not just Mackey and Whole Foods, but all kinds of interesting people, often doing smaller projects, um, you know, creating solar stoves for the poor in India, or infrastructure projects that are for refugee camps. There are an amazing number of people doing an amazing number of projects. And so part of what working with him did is I saw this extraordinary range. Some people think entrepreneur, shark tank, how much money you're going to make, all that. For me, it's all about purpose-driven entrepreneurship. And then in my schools, I very often connect a child's passion to okay, is there a way we can monetize this? Can we make money? Can we integrate purpose-driven and meaning with some kind of revenue stream? And uh I would say students really like that because, you know, not everybody is all about just making money, some are, but a lot of them also don't want to be poor. So if I can give them a framework of, okay, this is how to think about taking what I love and perhaps monetizing it, I've got eager teams uh ready to listen.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

So for parents who are listening who want their kids to develop real intellectual habits connected to those entrepreneurial uh mindsets, not just check boxes, where do they start? What's the entry point?

SPEAKER_00 23:17

A good question. I I think first, you know, Ralph Aldro Emerson once said, I can't hear what you're saying because who you are is shouting too loudly at me. So first and foremost, we should try to be an example to our kids. And, you know, just in terms of reading, I'm very big on reading. But if you tell your kid to read, but you're, you know, on your phone with social media all the time, you're really expecting them to read. So I think I'm very big on family time for reading from the time they're young. I'd personally like to go outside and read in the sunshine every 30 more minutes from an old-fashioned book as a ritual. So it creates this norm of reading in the household as much as possible and then discussing ideas. And, you know, I like to uh get kids thinking and talking about ideas. It's my greatest joy. So I would encourage parents, again, without you don't want to come down and tell them what to think. You want to explore the world. Why are they interested in what they're interested in? What makes it interesting for them? Why do they care about that? I encourage parents and educators to get inside the child's head. I call it loving your child's mind. Everybody loves to have attention focused on them. And I think sometimes parents get into this, oh, I've got to, I've got to persuade them this. I'm all about connecting. I do um I have a YouTube channel of Socratic Michael Strong where there's a child named Zalana, where I started at four years old and now she's 13. And so there are nine years of Socratic conversations with her. And initially, then we just warm up and hang out and I build rapport before asking some intellectual questions. So I think one of the things we're very good at is connecting warm relational caring with intellectual and not thinking of them as different things, but I care about you by caring about what you think and how you're thinking about things.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

So for a family who's not going to pull their kid out of the traditional school and but obviously listening to this conversation is very interested and it definitely clicks. What is something that, what is the conversation they could have tonight with their kid? Where, what direction could they go this summer to start building that authentic intellectual curiosity?

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Well, really great question. A lot of it depends on you know the child and the family and their situation and so forth. But if they first exposure is really important. So, you know, because I'm voraciously curious, I know all sorts of cool design projects, entrepreneurial projects, books to read, historical details. And so I would say, you know, maybe set aside a certain amount of time, you know, every day to explore something with your child. This is where, while I'm big on reading, if you need to do it on YouTube, uh, you know, think of things you want to learn as an adult that your child might also find kind of cool. And so I'm always looking for this intersection between what I think is cool and what the child thinks is cool. And I'm very intellectual, so I'm always stretching the child. Give you an example. There was a six-year-old child I was working with recently, and he was very big on airplanes. And I love airplanes too, but I'm interested in how are they built and how do they fly. And so, you know, sometimes kids just have a thing goes fast, cool thing goes fast, which is okay. But okay, now why does it go fast? How does it go fast? Which ones go faster? So it's asking questions. And if parents have a hard time coming up with questions, AI is great for this. Let's come up with 10 discussable questions about airplanes or 10 cool projects we can do around the house. One of these days I'll create an AI wrapper for helping parents come up with questions. I'm a question generating machine, but you know, lean into your AI to help generate questions where you and your kid connect on common interests.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

So, the where do you see the whole alternative education movement going in the next decade?

SPEAKER_00 26:57

Really great question. First, it's booming. I've been in this movement for a lifetime. Since COVID, it's taken off in a big way. And a lot of that was, you know, families pulled out of school and then often see Zoom school very passive, not very engaging. They had to come up with their own solutions. So many homeschooled, they created learning pods in their neighborhood. Some of those learning pods became micro schools. So I've seen dramatically greater openness to alternative education since COVID. I've read estimates of 5x growth with another 5x growth happening by 2030. Then, of course, in many states, I think it's 32 states, they're now educational scholarship accounts where many families can use government funds to send their children to alternative programs or homeschooling. That is juicing the system. I'm here in Austin, the headquarters of alternative education. Here it's become normalized. We're home to Acton Academy, Alpha School, many other microschools, lots of homeschools, unschoolers. So it's a dynamic movement. And I'm I'm seeing parents around the world. I was talking to a family in Jersey Island about creating microschool today, uh, yesterday about somebody in Japan creating a microschool. So I'd say this is a global movement for people, you know, you you do need some resources and spare time and confidence and so forth. But if you have those, I think it's a golden age to connect with other families who are interested in alternative pathways, and there are more resources out there than ever before.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

All right. Well, um, Michael, we're gonna pivot to the lightning round. So we're just gonna give you some rapid fire questions, no need for explanations, okay? Yep. Unless you want to. You can break the rules. All right. So, one book every teenager should read before they graduate.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

Wow, that's a good one. Well, I I'll I'll go with uh Dostoevsky's the The Demons. It's uh crazy, scary, difficult reading. If you want an easier one, we could go with Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. But for a very capable reader, Dostoevsky's a rip-roaring, crazy, crazy trip. So yeah, I I I'm I'm big on Dostoevsky when they can get there. How about the most overrated piece of education advice right now? I would say stick with it even if you hate it. I've seen so many kids being forced by parents in school to do things they hate, and it's not always productive. How about one thing parents overthink? I think they overthink grades and test scores. Again, for me, confidence and purpose. If I see a kid who's confidence and purpose driven at 13, I don't worry about them. If they are insecure, uncertain, I don't care what their grade score or test scores are, I'm worried. How about one thing parents underthink? I think the importance of their child having long-term purpose and vision for their life. Again, there are there are there's a catastrophe of unmotivated 20-year-olds. So this confidence in purpose is super important to instill.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

And what about uh the best question to ask a kid at the dinner table?

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Um why do you think the world is the way it is? And that that's a big one, but let's get into their head and see what they're thinking, because it's crazy out there. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

How about if you could whisper one piece of advice to a parent of a bright, restless 13-year-old? What would it be?

SPEAKER_00 30:31

Uh discover what really motivates him or her.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

Love it. Well, Michael, this has been incredibly thought-provoking. I know parents are gonna want to go deeper um and learn more about what you do and what you stand for. Where is the best place for them to find you and the Socratic Experience?

SPEAKER_00 30:51

So UWSocratic Experience.com is our website. See also my YouTube channel, Socratic Michael Strong, and I'm on Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, follow Socratic Experience, follow me on all those platforms, and we love to hear from Pair. So if they have questions, I can't do everything personally, but uh you know, we're creating actually Michael Strong bot so you get a version of me to answer all the questions.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

I'm definitely going to connect with you on LinkedIn as well. And uh, before we wrap, what's one thing you want people to remember from this conversation?

SPEAKER_00 31:25

That uh joy and love of learning can be combined in a healthy, positive way.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

Love it. Michael, thank you. I appreciate your time. It's great to meet you. I hope you'll come back and we can share maybe uh some more thoughts on where AI is gonna take education here in the next 10, 15 years. But thank you again for your time. Love to be here. Thanks so much, Joe. It's been a pleasure. And we'll put all the links and everything we discussed in the show notes and the YouTube description, as well as where you can connect with Michael as well. Thank you all for listening and tuning in to the Supported Learning Podcast. We'll see you next time. Thanks for joining us on the Supported Learning Podcast. If today's conversation inspired you, challenged you, or sparked a new perspective, be sure to subscribe and share with a fellow change maker. We'll be back soon with more voices, more insight, and more ways to elevate the future of learning together. Until then, keep learning and keep pushing the conversation forward.