SPEAKER_01 0:00

You're listening to the Support Ed Learning Podcast, where we challenge the status quo of education and reimagine what learning should be. I'm Dr. Joe Sebastian, and in every episode we dive into critical thinking, Bloom's Taxonomy, educational innovation, and how AI is shaping the future of learning. Whether you're a teacher, parent, policymaker, or lifelong learner, you're in the right place to rethink, reshape, and revive education.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

She has spent 30 years in college advising. She founded HECA, the professional home of the independent educational consultants. She's trained thousands of counselors to a UCLA extension. She's pioneered the first college planning software a generation before most people were talking about tech in this industry. And now she's leading the conversation on how AI is going to reshape college counseling. Sydney McDonald is one of the most influential voices in the field, and today we're diving all into it. Welcome back to Sport Learning Podcast. I'm Dr. Joe Sebastian. Families often ask me how to navigate the maze of college prep without wasting thousands of dollars in years of time. And the answer usually involves finding the people who have figured out the rules of the game that schools aren't telling you. That's why I'm genuinely honored to have Cindy McDonald here today. Cindy is a certified educational planner with over 30 years in college advising, a former school counselor, and the founder of HECA, the Higher Education Consultants Association. She's an instructor at UCLA Extension College Counseling Certificate Program, produces Friday forums for educational professionals nationwide, and pioneered the first college planning software with my CCA and now guided path. Her current focus is integrating AI into college planning while keeping the student experience human-centered. So we're going to dive into what 30 years in this industry has taught her, why student first match beats prestige chasing and how AI is actually going to reshape this college counseling landscape and what every parent needs to know right now. Cindy, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Well, Dr. Joe, thank you for having me. I'm really glad to be here today to talk about this very broad but substantial topic.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Yeah, I mean, I've given them the highlight reel, but if you can give us the 60-second snapshot, how we ask every guest, just uh in your own words, who are you? What's the central problem you're you spent your career trying to solve in education?

SPEAKER_00 2:22

I I think it it does all stem from my own experience as a first-gen student growing up in the mountains in Colorado. My dad said you can go to college, but I can't pay for it. So I always knew I had to pay for it myself. Had a lot of journeys in that, ended up going getting through college and realized that I wasn't the only one. There are a lot of other students and other people. If I had known then, like my I've been able to tell my younger self what it was, then it could have made such a difference. I was not one of those fortunate ones who had a counselor or teacher who took me under their wing. Yeah, I just was very anonymous in high school. And so that really generated the whole push and passion and life's vision of there are other people who have this. And if they only knew certain basics about it, because as we talk about college and college admissions, you have two languages of consumeries, which is what we look at, and you have colleges, which is what the colleges speak. And you need somebody to marriage, you know, kind of translate one into the other. And that's what I've been able to do through my work as a counselor, as a trainer, as an administrator, um, and as a business professional. And that's also what led to founding technology because, like, there's got to be another way to doing this in this day and age, and this was way, this was even before the internet was was just kind of getting started in the 90s. Like, there's gotta be another way to do this. I'm always that big picture person, always looking for a global perspective that can help the the largest number of people. And also thinking outside the box. Just because you did it one way doesn't mean you always have to do it that way. And when you're coming from an as a disruptor, you're coming from an outside viewpoint, it gives you a little bit, it gives you credibility and opportunity to do that. And there are many, you know, business and business um entrepreneurial stories about being disruptors in an industry. And we have those in education as well.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

So take me back, you started as a school counselor. What made you leave the school-based world and get into independent consulting?

SPEAKER_00 4:47

It was actually a little bit of both. I actually started off doing working independently with farmers. I live in Central California. And so it's a highly agricultural area community. And so, and we were farmers too at the time. So I was met with some people in our community and realized that they were making decisions, financial decisions, based on what they thought colleges, how college cost things worked. And so I went to the Farm Bureau and said, Hey, you know, what if I do a workshop and train people, teach people how to do this? So that was my very first step into this. 85 people showed up and that and they all lined up and said, we want to learn more. So that's how I figured out, well, there's a need here. And then I went and got my degree and became a counselor and worked in the school programs and especially worked in the Avid program, which is a program for students who are first generation and underrepresented. And I did that for 14 years. So working kind of had did the independent, then did the school, and then have have done both and now you know teach for UCLA. So but but there's a lot of things you can do when you're solo that it's hard to do in a school study. You have a lot more constrictions and considerations. And this is where being able to, if you're an out-of-the-box thinker when you're working in a school, sometimes that can be quite challenging. And by working with students independently, I can say, well, you can go take this online class or go take this class at this other, you know, high school or community college or whatever. And so I couldn't do that as a counselor in a school. So, but teaching the SAT and the ACT and doing test prep was a big part of what we did in our Avid program. And starting it early. That's one of the tips I would give people is it's you don't wait, especially with underrepresented or first generation students, you can't wait until the junior year of high school. That's too late. You have to start as early as fifth, sixth grade to help students know and understand. And you train the parents too. You don't just train the students, but you you give the parents information too. So those are two keys that I've learned and really try to pass on.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Yeah, it's probably one of the biggest objections I hear when we start when we bring up college counseling. Like, hey, you know, like a lot of them come to us for APs and we're like, hey, have you thought about what you're doing for college? Oh, yeah, that's we're we're gonna get that to next year. Like that's you know, we're we're a sophomore and we're gonna do a job. Like you're throwing away your best asset with the which is time, planning and time. Uh the sooner you start the better. And I think it's hard because you know, the industry right now, and we'll get into that in a second, is kind of training families on what they should be doing when you know, just having the exploration phase, like we talk about just well, like schools are really bad at career exploration, right? There, I mean there's some schools have programs, have mandates, but kids don't actually get that time to figure out what they want to do. And, you know, 20 years ago, it was okay because you could go into college undecided and kind of discover what you want to do. I know I went as political science, I switched into secondary education, but like when you're talking about $90,000 a year in tuition, you really can't explore like that. So, you know, you founded HECA. I guess what made you, it's a professional home of independent educational consultants. What was missing from the industry that made you build that?

SPEAKER_00 8:36

There was no organization at that time for independent educational counselors focused on college. It there it was HECA was the very first one to say, hey, we need something that's college-oriented. And it was much more inclusive. It was we weren't just looking at students coming from like private schools or boarding schools. We're looking at students in public education, um, charter schools. Charter schools was a big movement at that time. And so that was the huge, and it's still the only organization that focuses just on the college planning aspect. Now I agree with you. We also need to expand that. We need to expand both directions, you know, to especially the career. You we shouldn't just be doing college, it's not about filling in applications, it's about a moment in a student and a parent, a family's life. So we need to do the career, absolutely. We need to do the financial aid. I Joe, I started doing financial, I mean, I was doing financial aid with farmers, and nobody else I knew even talked about financial aid. And there's still a huge aversion to how do you pay for college? And now when you're paying $90,000 and you're as soon as it'll be $100,000 a year, how can you not? And so that's the other thing is we shouldn't be afraid to become specialists in understanding how college affordability works.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

So you've been in this for 30 years. What's the biggest change you've seen in the college college counseling over that time?

SPEAKER_00 10:24

I think the the specificity that has come in and the list of things that students need to do. Before it was just be interested, be engaged during your high school. You don't have to do everything, but don't just sit in your room and play, you know, video games or or you know, do more than just one sport. Now it's you have to do that, you have to be a leader, you have to do community service, you have to do your own research project and all these things. It just creates so much pressure for students and parents. And sometimes it's self-imposed. The colleges are are looking at this, and the comp there are companies that are starting to help manage all of this, but it just seems like the the what you need to do as a student has just grown exponentially. It's not enough just to be a good student. It's not enough just to be an engaged student. You have to do all these other things as well.

SPEAKER_02 11:32

Yeah, I mean, you can't get into an Ivy League school unless you do a research project led by a college professor. You've had a passion project, you started a business, yep, and done a high-intense internship. There's no way else to get into an Ivy League school unless you've done all four of those things, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and you start your own foundation and you know, and all those things. It's just and and that's the part of things that makes me really sad because they we are working with adolescents, we are still working with teens, and their brains are not as developed as they, you know, at at 16, 17, 18 as they will and 22 and 23. So why are we making them like even just writing the college essay? They're not developmentally ready for that. And yet we force them into it, and they feel like they have to be forced into these little boxes. And and that's the value of having a college counselor, whether you're a public or a private or you know, working in an organization, like we have United Way, you know, that does college counseling for students and things in my community, is just that you have counselors and people who can help you see past all that and be able to say, well, maybe somebody else is doing that, but look at you're not giving yourself enough credit. You're not giving yourself enough credit that you're doing this and helping your parents with the restaurant and watching your siblings, and you learn how to you translate for your parents, you know, and I've seen that over and over again. So that's one of the things that we can do as counselors is really help students with their mindset and the parents too, to understand, you know, what's necessary. And not everybody needs to get into the top 10 colleges. That's the other thing. There are over 2,800 colleges and way more in the US. And there are so many that offer so many great opportunities and experiences that are an excellent education and oftentimes give students much better experiences because they're not competing at that high level all the time. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

So you before we get into that about students, you actually pioneered my CCA. Now it's called Guided Path. Like it's a full generation before most people were even talking about tech and consulting. What did you see back then that most people met?

SPEAKER_00 14:00

Well, and that's that's a really good question because we were the very first one to say, hey, you can take this paper-based, very manual process and turn it into use technology to make your life and the students and the parents better and easier. And my impetus was I was married to a database programmer. And so I knew it was possible, but nobody and we looked and looked, there was no programs, no, no software, nothing out there. You know, basically it was Word and you know, Microsoft. And so I went to my husband and said, hey, you know, can you can build a database? Why don't you build one for me that I can use for this process? Because I'm tired of doing this all with files and folders and keeping track of all of this. And then we talked about it and I talked to some other consultants, like, well, if I needed it, other people needed it. And that was the same reason we did Hacker. If I'm I need an organization because I'm in the middle of nowhere, other people will. So we launched my CCA, my college consultant assistant, and demonstrated that you can take this process and turn it into a system. And Joe, it takes having those visions. Like I knew what I wanted as a college search process. I needed to be able to look at these factors, bring in, bring in data. That was our biggest challenge is finding good, accurate data to use. And the programmers would look at me, and this is the benefit of A, being a female in this technology, which there weren't any at all, and B being an educator, not a programmer. And so I think that's something we often misunderstand or think like if you're going to do something, you have to come from that background. And that is just not the case. You often bring a whole different perspective. So coming as an educator, it's like, I need to have this and this and this and this on the search. And the programmers would say, No, Cindy, it has to be static. You can only say one thing and have the one things, and it's always going to be that way. Well, why? Why? It's not every student's the same, not every search is gonna be the same. I'm gonna need other factors. It took five years for my vision to be implemented through the technology. So it took five years for technology to catch up with it, but they did, and and it was the best search tool, and and still, you know, through it, Guided Path is now owned by learning, and you know, it's still one of the best search tools. Now with AI, it's just transforming the whole process, and you don't have to have everything perfect. And that's what I love about AI, is it's good. That's the one area I think it's just going to just magnify what you're able to do. Give parents and and students tools too. They still need a human element in there to check things and monitor and everything else. But but that's why, you know, take something that's paper-based, take something and just see the vision, see where it can go, and and then you know, other people will follow you.

SPEAKER_02 17:16

Well, that's encouraging because we're we're building our own software for the AP program, and that's like I'm taking my core philosophy of test prep, expanding it across 23 subjects, but where as we grow and we have more and more tutors trying to keep the constant variable in the data tied to skill-based assessments, which all the AP exams measure. So it's like if we able to centralize that on a dashboard, technically, the more assessments kids take that's graded along the lines of the AP scores, they should be able, we should be able to accurately predict what they're getting with with some more accuracy than just hoping the tutor does well. Like we still humans at the center, but basically make them like cyborg tutors. So I I love that. And then you were in the fact that you did that before AI is very, very impressive. So but let's get into your core methodology because you're we were talking a little earlier before the podcast that student first college match analysis that's a specific anchor, it's not best ranked school we can get into. Um, I want you to walk me through that, like what student first match actually means in practice. And I'm gonna juxtapose it to I see a lot of these. I I know I know there's more than this dichotomy, but I see people that want the big brands but have a surface level understanding of why, and they like they're just chasing the brand, but they have no depth of knowledge of why they want that. They just want to go to the top school, and then I see others like that. I and this is like a little more genuine kids who are fantastic students, phenomenal students. They've done they've done school really, really well, they've done activities, they've done the arts really well, they've done sports really well, but they have no idea what they want to do or where they want to go. But they're a top student, they played school really well, but they have no idea. So knowing that those are my dichotomies I usually see on a daily basis. How do you your methodology student first?

SPEAKER_00 19:17

And that was the number one challenge that I faced when I was working as with students, and as you know, you start working with one or two. Well, you can do a lot of research and do different things with one or two. But as you start multiplying and working with more and more students, we talk about best fit in our industry, but what does that mean? And so I heard this term, like, well, how am I supposed to get to learn what best fit is for these students if I don't know them? And so I started looking for different tools or resources where I could do surveys, where I can do questionnaires. I learned about different instruments. You know, you've got the Meyer Briggs type of instruments, you've got strong inventory, which is based on the Holland model, and then there, you know, there's there's several different ones that have come. The ONET, the the government's Outlook Handbook is based on Holland model, which is what strong inventory is too. It's it's a six-part perspective on preferences and things. And so I started looking around, and again, I found one author, and he is a pioneer in our industry, and it's Dr. Steven Antonoff. And he wrote a book on called College Match, and he was the very first one that had surveys, and he had become a very good friend of mine. We've presented many times, we're both very passionate about how do you find the best fit. It's through asking questions and getting students to do surveys, questionnaires, icebreakers, those kinds of things. And by, and I've always done it with parents as well. And this is how you get them out of that mindset of, oh, it's just the top 10 universities, is by showing them here's what your child said, here's what you said, you know, let's match these things together. And my role is to help you find those things. Now, their other thing that I try to teach parents and students, it's not the unfit, you know, there's one perfect college for you. I hear a lot of people talking about, well, it's got to have X, Y, Z, and it's got to have, you know, that climbing wall. And of course, it has to have, you know, the perfect student union, whatever. Like you're never going to find the perfect college, but it's like finding the perfect house. You know, you find the houses that fit you, and and and you then you make it happen. And that's the other thing that we try to build on. You don't get into that dream. School, okay, no big deal. You're gonna make it work for you. And here's how you're gonna do it. And that's one of the other tips that I would give is we also need to include transition. I tell my students, I'm not trying to get you out of high school, I'm trying to get you into college. And one of the things in Avid, we're very Avid is very data driven. It's a, as I mentioned, it's a at you know, a program for students that's held in the schools. And so we recorded AP and SAT and things like that. 97% of students who go through Avid go to college. But the telling thing is 87% of them stay in college. And that's the big accomplishment. And so the student first is being able to help them be able to know and understand what truly matters in the process. And that's part of that is, as you said, it's getting to know themselves. That doing self-reflection is the number one most important thing that we can help students do. And it's easy to do in groups. I've done it with hundreds. In fact, I have an activity called Your Party that I do. The more kids I have, the better, because it has more impact. And so that student exploration is what starts them on the road to understanding okay, here is the college, here's what you need to do, here's a whole range. You know, you've got to have a balanced list. That's the other key. If you're only applying, students come to us counselors all the time. I'm sure you see those too. Like they only got the top 10 schools in their list. And they think for some reason, we as counselors have a magic wand or a magic back door or something that's going to say, okay, here I'm going to open this door and push you in. Like if there people are telling you that, then they're there. That's why would you want to go to college in that situation anyway? You want to go where it's going to be good for you and it's going to be a good fit. So exploring your why and why you want to go to college is the very first step. And that's how you would put students first.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

It's good to hear that because that's what we say. Like, why do you even want to go to college? Like, why would you know what do you want to do? Um, because I think so many people are focused on the goalpost just being emissions. Really, the goalpost, like, especially if you're talking about the top 10, they don't care about you getting in. They care about what you're going to do in the world. And they're looking for that. And it's like the mindset switch of like, well, I'm going to do to make this huge impact. That's who they want. That's their best marketing. You obviously trained thousands of consultants through HECA, UCLA Extension, and Friday Forums. What separates a great educational consultant from a mediocre one?

SPEAKER_00 24:46

I would think, I would say it's being realistic. Sometimes people come into this profession and they are very, there's nothing wrong with being idealistic. I've I'm a very idealistic person as well. But there is a reality to this too. And strategic development management was a real thing. And many people don't know and understand it. And you think if you prefer a student, a student is passionate about what they want to do, and you know, they want to go on public health or whatever pain. Well, then the colleges should respond and they should paraphague. It can be all those wonderful things, and they're still gonna get told them. And so the difference between the excellent comfort and a mediocre one is really knowing and understanding how to truly prepare the student. You know, again, we're not it's not an application process. That's kind of the byproduct. You're you're counseling and working with students and families, and knowing and understanding that makes a huge amount of difference in in the work that you do.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

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SPEAKER_02 26:25

For a family looking for a consultant, how should they actually vet one? And what are the questions they should ask?

SPEAKER_00 26:33

I would say, and I I so one of the things that I do, Joe, is I have workshops for counselors on all different kinds of topics that we're talking about. And one of them is on you know what your initial consultation should be when you're sitting down with a family and they're they're trying to find out from you whether or not you're right fit or not. You want to find the counselor who listens 80% to what your needs are. If they do that, if they do more listening than talking, then you're gonna be in a much better position to work with that. Because if they're doing all the talking, then you're not gonna be able to have a personalized experience because they're not gonna know what your needs are and they're trying to meet all your needs at once. And nobody, and I learned this because of technology. When I was demonstrating diet path, it did 120, you know, it did everything except change the light bulb. And I could tell everybody everything, but I soon learned that no, not everybody wants to know everything. So I started asking questions what's most important to you? What are you worried about? What is you know keeps you awake at night? What what what will help you grow your business or help your students at your school? So looking for a counselor who asks questions of you and where you just talk more and they listen is the number one thing I would say.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

Student-to-counselor ratios make real college advising nearly almost impossible in most public schools. So, what's the ripple effect for families?

SPEAKER_00 28:24

It it is, you know, the the ripple effect is just two things uninformed and misinformed. You know, they have to rely on each other, and the internet and social media and stuff has just created this whole fire hose approach, you know, effect, so that they're looking and finding all this information. And so often what they find, the rumors they see are incorrect or bad or just you know, misleading, whatever. So there, but there are many tools and resources out there. Many universities have tools and resources the students can go to. I would say that's probably the number one thing is go to the college websites themselves. There are programs for first gen and underrepresented students, even, you know, just the college board has information. The the common app, which has grown. When I first, you know, first when the common app first started, it was like 40 some schools, and they weren't none of them were on the West Coast. So we didn't even use, I never had a student use it because then my students were applying to the 40 schools that were on the list. And now it's apply use it to apply more than around 900 schools. But they've got tools and resources out there too. So it's it's really, and this is where AI can be such a help is being able to look at and do research through AI and really you have to teach students though AI literacy, just like we used to teach them about marketing, or younger people won't remember this, but they used to have cigarettes that were advertised in, you know, and in TV and and and all. And so we would teach students like when you see this about cigarettes, here's what you should know. And that's the same thing with AI. You know, you've got to be literate and be cautious and and and be smart about it, but don't be afraid of it. And and I think that is one of those tools that is really going to help students and families learn so much more, but you still need that student elephant. And if you don't have it at your school, parent groups, there we had parent academies and they were the best, you know. So, but in doing things in groups too can be very effective. Find a teacher. You know, teachers often will opportunities. I used to I worked as a middle school counselor, worked as a high school counselor and middle school counselor, then went back to high school. And I would have lunchtime and I started the junior um California Scholarship Federation, which is our you know, on our honor society here in California, and I'd have the um lunchroom make pizza. So the students would come and eat pizza, and I'd have a guest speaker, a college person, or a math person, you know, or things like that. So teachers, counselors, pe coaches. I mean, I've had so many people, Joe, who've just been able to do that for students. So it can be, you know, in your community, in your school, whether you're a highly competitive school or not, you can find resources to help you be able to do that. And, you know, a paid counselor is a great resource. It will save you in the end. By having somebody who knows what they're doing, if you're gonna be spending $50, $60,000, $80,000,000 a year, and that person helps you save, you know, $30,000, $40,000, $50,000, $100,000, you more than paid for it. So, you know, it's the same kind of thing with the test prep that that you do, the AP, SAT, ACT, you know, every amount of time you spend on that is turns into dollar signs in in terms of scholarships and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

So AI and college counseling, you've been outspoken that it's gonna reshape the industry the next five years. Can you break down specifically what is gonna change?

SPEAKER_00 32:33

Well, I think it's going to be, you know, on both sides of the desk, both on the counselor side. Well, I will I'll let's use three sides of the desk. We'll use a three-sided legged, three-legged spool. It's gonna change what the counselors do, it's gonna change what students do, and it's gonna change what colleges do. And we're already seeing that. Colleges are now using AI to help review applications. You know, they've been inundated with Common App and other things, have increased the number of average of applications per st per college, you know, or per student too, what they send out. So using AI to review the applications can help actually increase the holistic approach because they can evaluate those transcripts and give you a summary and you know, look at test war, look at your school profile, look at even review essays, and then gives that more, that gives you more opportunities through to do the other parts, the human part that the AI is not gonna be able to replace. So I'm not worried that AI is going to replace us, either as college admissions professionals, counselors, teachers, or advisors, but it is gonna transform what we do. And you know, some people are gonna be, there are gonna be some stumbles along the way. They already have, and people are talking about oh, are they gonna, you know, AI essays, you know, you can tell whether it's written by AI or not. Well, sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. You know, who wrote this application? Well, it used to be did you have a ghostwriter do it? Now it's did you have an AI do it? So some of the issues haven't really changed. It's just who's, you know, who's the the author. But there's quite a big movement. Emily Pacheco from founded the AI and college admissions affinity group and for NACAC, and she's been really promoting and quite a group of people how to help create that ethical, human-based approach to AI. But as counselors, oh my gosh, like and this is why technology is so great. When I'd sit down and show people on guided path, you know, here are those elements that took five years to get into place. But here, you can do a search and look, here's all this information. They tell me this one thing just saved me eight hours of time. And if I need to change it, I don't have to redo and retype the whole thing. I just change a few check marks and I can regenerate it. That was a huge time saver. AI is just multiplied that. And so it's going to, it's going to actually make our jobs easier and more relevant and more essential as counselors, training students, you know, what can they do? What they cannot do. That's gonna be part of it. And the college admissions will continue to see how that all evolves. But right now, so often, institutions move very slowly, they don't make changes very quickly. And what we can do, what you can do, is and say, okay, I'm gonna embrace this, I'm gonna be an early adopter, I'm gonna check it out and be careful, but I'm not, it's not gonna go away. It's not the genie is not gonna go in the back of the box. So if we can really look at it and be on the leading edge, we're gonna be the ones that make it what it looks like as we move forward. So I'm I'm very excited to see. And and I have all my UCLA students explore and experiment, and I've gotten great comments back from I never even knew what to do with AI to I'm very experienced. And does it always save time? No. Does it give you the best outcome? No, but you learn and you grow, and and AI is learning and change. I mean, it's changing. So I think it, you know, it can it can take a lot of variety. Maybe essays will go away because everybody thinks they're going to do they're all written by AI. But I think the the colleges are also smart enough to look at other ways to help learn about the student, which is what the applications are all about. So so it'll be exciting. It's an exciting time to be part of a new technology push.

SPEAKER_02 37:01

So for a parent of a ninth or tenth grader, the college search could be years away. What's the one thing they should be doing now that pays off for the match later?

SPEAKER_00 37:12

They should be aware that no matter what, the number one thing that's most important to any whether any college, whether you're going to the most elite college, and we're not just talking about US either. And that's the other thing, too, Joe, is students are really looking all over the world, from the US, going abroad, and vice versa. Although right now we don't have quite as many students coming from other countries to the US. But but the options for students have really expanded. And so for ninth grader, 10th grader, even a middle school, it's what's the rigor of your curriculum? Don't be afraid to take hard courses. Don't be afraid to take that honors class or an AP. And most specially, don't be afraid of math. You've got to have the math foundation. And if you don't start, that's why you can't wait until you're the end of your 11th grade and say, hey, okay, now I'm going to college. Because if you can get the right math starting in sixth, seventh, eighth grade, and every district is different. I'm in California. The students can start taking like a high school level math as early as seventh or eighth grade, some places. And so don't be afraid to challenge yourself. Don't, don't, don't sacrifice rigor for grade points because the colleges are always going to go. The high school, what you learn is always going to go with the rigor. So that's the number one thing.

SPEAKER_02 38:47

How about for a junior? Like this is the big year. What's the actual sequence for a student-first mass-driven search?

SPEAKER_00 38:57

I think that again, you know, there are two things for the junior. And this is where, as we were talking about earlier, there's just not a lot of room for exploration of our school systems. And here in California, especially, but I know you know I work with people over all sorts of school districts approaches here and abroad, is having balance. You know, you don't want you want to have classes in all the core subjects. You want to make sure you have a math and an English and a history and a science. Um, those are the four core ones. Foreign language is always good to have a humanities class, fine arts, visual performing arts. You know, those don't think of electives as, oh, these are my free fun classes to take. Think of electives as my opportunity to explore another subject. So maximize the opportunity that you have because a lot of times you're not able to take a the classes that you're interested in, or B, they're not offered. You don't, there aren't enough choices in the schools. So you know, look at rigor, take the hardest classes you can and make sure you're meeting those core subjects. And you can do your expiration sometimes through you know, summer programs or internships or things like that, too.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

How do parents know when they should hire a consultant versus when they should try to do it on their own?

SPEAKER_00 40:30

Well, I would say they should always hire a consultant. And and it's not because the most important thing is that you're especially as a senior, but even earlier than that, that parent-child relationship can really be stressed and strained while you're getting closer and closer to college. And then you want to have a good relationship with your child. You want to have a nice year the last year there at home. And so having that outside person, whether it's a school counselor, a you know, a community organization or a private counselor can make all the difference in the world. And the other thing, too, Joe, that I would say, this is not just for high school seniors who are graduating who are 18. I've had students from 30, 40, 50. I had a mom, she was sending her daughter to college, and I she didn't know that she could go to college too. I sent helped her to understand and realize her own dream of going to college. And she went to a women's college and she became an ambassador for them. And you know, so it's not just for 18-year-olds. If you want to have quality relationship with whoever it is, your child, your spouse, your parent, you know, having an outside individual, it's like having a coach, a batting coach, or a vocal coach, or you know, a personal trainer. My goodness, we'll go pay money to have our hair done or our nails done, or you know, a nutritionist, and we won't pay for something like education that's gonna last your whole life. You know, it's an investment in your child, in yourself and in your family.

SPEAKER_02 42:24

All right, Cindy, let's shift gears. We're gonna move over to lightning rounds. So just rapid fire questions first come to mind, all right? Most overrated thing in college missions.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

Passion projects.

SPEAKER_02 42:37

Most underrated.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

Just being yourself.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

One thing parents overthink.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

Admissions to elite colleges.

SPEAKER_02 42:49

One thing parents underthink.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

Admissions in general.

SPEAKER_02 42:54

Last question every family should ask a consultant, they're considering. Where is your focus? AI tools, one AI tool families should be using the college process and one they should avoid.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

Um I would say avoid free versions because the free versions of any tools are limited. So pick one and for it.

SPEAKER_02 43:21

Um if a parent could do one thing after listening to this, what should it be?

SPEAKER_00 43:27

Reach out to a counselor.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

There you go. Cindy, this has been a genuine privilege. I really appreciate your time. For people who want to go deeper with you, where can they find you? Where should they check out first?

SPEAKER_00 43:40

They can go to me, and I would love and welcome that. They can reach me at my website at CindyMcDonald.com. I just want to point out to people my name is a little spelled a little differently. It's C Y N D Y. So I have two Ys in my name. I also have a YouTube channel where I've interviewed experts in this area, and it's Cindy McDonald's channel on YouTube. And they can always email me cindy at cindymacdonald.com.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

All right. And before we wrap, what's one thing you want people to remember from this conversation?

SPEAKER_00 44:13

I hope they will see that there are so many options for them. There's not just one, there are multiple opportunities, and and it really is more than just college admissions. It's exploring a special stage that your child or your family member will never go through in much of them. But make it joinful and make it open fast.

SPEAKER_02 44:45

All right. Cindy, thank you. Again, really appreciate you sharing the 30 years of wisdom with us today. And for everyone listening, remember student first match beats the prestige every time. AI is a tool, not a shortcut. Great consultants combine deep student knowledge with smart use of data. So foundations first, every time. We're gonna link everything, Cindy, our channels or resources in the show notes and the YouTube description. And we want to thank you all for tuning in to the Support Learning Podcast. We'll see you next time. Thank you, Cindy.

SPEAKER_00 45:16

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 45:17

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

Thanks for joining us on the Supported Learning Podcast. If today's conversation inspired you, challenged you, or sparked a new perspective, be sure to subscribe and share with a fellow change maker. We'll be back soon with more voices, more insight, and more ways to elevate the future of learning together. Until then, keep learning and keep pushing the conversation forward.